EP 109: How Can We Redefine Health and Wellness in Asian American Culture? With Soo Jin Lee, LMFT & Linda Yoon, LCSW.
The cycle of “saving face” can be suffocating, but breaking free starts with finding your voice. I've learned that authenticity and community are vital in redefining health and wellness within our culture.
In this episode of the F*ck Saving Face podcast, join us as we explore setting boundaries and seeking therapy that honors our heritage. I explore the intersection of Asian American identity and mental health with guests, Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon, co-directors of Yellow Chair Collective and co-authors of "Where I Belong."
Soo Jin and Linda share their personal journeys as Asian American women and mental health professionals. They discuss overcoming language barriers, undocumented status, and the discovery of neurodivergence in the form of ADHD.
Our conversation highlights the importance of culturally competent therapy and the challenges of setting boundaries within Asian families. The episode emphasizes the need to break through the cultural norm of saving face and redefine health and wellness in a cultural context, advocating for authenticity and community support.
Embracing Identity and Healing Trauma: A Journey with Asian American Authors
Breaking Through Taboos and Empowering Mental Health
As an Asian American woman, I've dedicated this platform to empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by tackling taboo topics head-on. Life's complexities may not always be pretty, but they are undeniably beautiful, and it's within our power to weave our narratives into something truly magnificent.
From Shame to Celebration: The Evolution of Cultural Identity
In a world that's rapidly changing, the journey of embracing one's identity can be fraught with challenges. I remember the days when bringing seaweed to school in West LA was a source of embarrassment. Fast forward to today, and it's a celebrated snack among my daughter and her friends. This shift from shame to pride is a testament to the progress we've made, and it's a topic that deeply resonates with me and my guests.
Introducing Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon: Voices of Resilience
In a particularly exciting episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon, the co-directors of Yellow Chair Collective and co-authors of "Where I Belong." Both women share their experiences as Korean immigrants and their paths to becoming therapists, authors, and advocates for mental health within the Asian American community.
Soo Jin Lee: Art as a Universal Language
Susan Lee's story is one of resilience and self-discovery. As a 1.5 generation Korean immigrant, she faced the daunting task of adjusting to a new culture and language. Art became her refuge, a universal language that transcended words. Despite being discouraged from pursuing art therapy, Susan's mentor guided her towards becoming a marriage and family therapist, allowing her to integrate her passion for art into her practice. Writing "Where I Belong" was a full-circle moment, transforming her love for art into the written word.
Linda Yoon: Redefining Narratives and Embracing Neurodiversity
Linda Yoon's narrative is equally compelling. Growing up in San Diego, she grappled with her family's generational trauma and the discovery of her neurodivergence. Diagnosed with ADHD, Linda confronted the model minority myth and the expectations placed upon her. Her story is one of breaking cycles and forging new family narratives free from past abuses.
The Power of Art Therapy and the ADHD Journey
Art therapy played a pivotal role in both Susan's and Linda's healing processes. Linda's personal breakthroughs with art therapy underscore its profound impact. Our discussion delved into the nuances of ADHD, particularly in women, where symptoms often manifest differently than the traditional hyperactive presentation. Linda's openness about her struggles and triumphs offers a beacon of hope for those who may see themselves in her story.
Challenging Cultural Norms and Fostering Authenticity
Our conversation also explored the delicate balance of setting boundaries within Asian families and the importance of culturally competent therapy. The founding of Yellow Chair Collective was a response to the need for mental health services that honor the cultural context of Asian Americans. We discussed the concept of homeostasis and the journey of unlearning and relearning beliefs, emphasizing the significance of authenticity and community in breaking the cycle of saving face.
Conclusion: A Call to Community and Authenticity
As we wrapped up the episode, I was reminded of the power of sharing our stories. It's through these personal narratives that we can challenge cultural norms, foster understanding, and build a supportive community. I invite you to join us in this ongoing conversation, to seek out culturally competent therapy, and to embrace the beauty of your own story.
Thank you for tuning into the F*ck Saving Face podcast. Your support is invaluable in helping others discover these crucial discussions. If you found this episode meaningful, please consider leaving a review on iTunes. Stay connected with me by signing up for my weekly newsletter at wildheartedwards.com, where I aim to bring a spark of joy to your inbox each week. Until next time, aloha!
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Episode Highlights:
Embracing Asian American identity (00:00:21) The guest author discusses the experience of shame around her Asian American identity and the shift towards embracing it.
Introduction of Yellow Chair Collective (00:01:05) The hosts introduce the guests, Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon, co-directors of Yellow Chair Collective, and discuss their work and book "Where I Belong."
Susan Lee's journey as a 1.5-generation Korean immigrant (00:01:53) Susan Lee shares her journey as a 1.5-generation Korean immigrant, her experience of becoming undocumented, and her path to becoming a therapist.
Linda Yoon's experience as a South Korean immigrant (00:04:13) Linda Yoon discusses her experience as a South Korean immigrant, her family's generational trauma, and her discovery of being neurodivergent with ADHD.
Understanding ADHD in Asian culture (00:06:20) Linda Yoon and the host discuss the challenges of recognizing and understanding ADHD in Asian culture, especially for women.
Trauma and its physical manifestations (00:12:23) The guests discuss the physical manifestations of trauma, such as migraines, and the connection between acute stress and physical symptoms.
Body's response to stress and intergenerational trauma (00:13:02) Susan Lee shares her experience of carrying intergenerational trauma in her body and the connection between mental and physical health.
Encouraging self-compassion and addressing open secrets (00:18:46) The hosts discuss the importance of self-compassion and addressing open secrets, highlighting the need for compassion in dealing with triggering emotions.
Boundaries and Cultural Expectations (00:19:51) Discussion on setting boundaries in Asian families, navigating cultural expectations, and the challenges faced.
The Yellow Chair Collective (00:27:24) The origin, mission, and growth of the Yellow Chair Collective, a mental health organization focused on serving Asian and Asian American communities.
Homeostasis and Reclaiming Identity (00:33:08) Exploration of the concept of homeostasis in the context of mental health and identity, and the process of reclaiming one's history and belonging in society.
Embracing Authenticity and Community (00:36:56) Encouragement to be open, share stories, and build authentic connections within the community, emphasizing the power of authenticity and genuine connections.
Book Purchase and Further Information (00:39:21) Information on where to purchase the book "Where I Belong" and how to learn more about the Yellow Chair Collective.
Links Mentioned:
Where I Belong book
Warwick’s Event in La Jolla, San Diego for Yellow Chair Collective
Judy Tsuei LinkedIn
Judy Tsuei Instagram
There may be affiliate links included in this blog post.
Transcript:
Judy Tsuei (00:00:02) - Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today.
Judy Tsuei (00:00:21) - Today's episode is really exciting for me because I get to interview fellow authors, and I also get to interview Asian American women authors, and we get to talk about, you know, this whole idea of healing trauma, of embracing our Asian American identity. I know that growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood in West L.A., I always felt such shame around my identity. And I've mentioned this in other podcast episodes before, but like me, bringing seaweed to school was like, oh my gosh, what are you doing? And now you could buy seaweed at Costco. And my daughter and all of her friends are like, that's our favorite snack. Just yesterday she had two friends over and they're eating rice crackers and the whole thing, they're like, we love this. So.
Judy Tsuei (00:01:05) - So today's guests are Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon, who are the co-directors of Yellow Chair Collective, which I didn't mention before we got into this recording, that I think that I've interviewed another therapist in the Yellow Chair Collective. So I wanted to kind of like ask about your business as a whole. And they're the co-authors of where I belong, but I'm going to turn it over to our guests to make a brief introduction, and then we're going to dive into some juicy bits that could easily be hours long conversations around each of them. When I took notes and I was like, I want to ask you about this, and I want to ask you about this. Susan was like, well, that's half the book right there. So, um, so if you could introduce yourselves and tell me a little bit about, you know, how you got into this work and your cultural, you know, upbringing and background. Yeah.
Soo Jin Lee (00:01:53) - So I'll get started. My name is Soo Jin Lee. I go by she her and I am I identify myself as a 1.5 generation Korean immigrant.
Soo Jin Lee (00:02:06) - And I came to the States when I was ten years old with my parents and a younger brother, and we immigrated. And I'll talk about this part of my story. I'm sure you wanted to ask about it. Uh, we came and we ended up becoming undocumented. And so that's part of my journey as well. And I became a therapist because at the time I had a really hard time adjusting to the culture, but more so adjusting to the language. And so I actually started doing art. And because that felt universal, and I didn't even know that why I was drawn to it until I became a therapist. Right? That I started psychoanalyzing myself. And I was like, oh, that's why I loved art. That's because I didn't have language. And art is a language, but nonverbal, right? And so I started doing art and I thought I would do art therapy. There was a therapist that I call a mentor at the time, and she told me that you would never have a job as an art therapist because it was just not popular back then.
Soo Jin Lee (00:03:00) - And so she made me go through the process of becoming a marriage and family therapist. But that said, you can incorporate art into your work. And so that's just kind of my my process right now. And this book, writing this book where I belong, has been this also a creative journey for me in a different way, where I thought art could be spinned in a different way with words. And so it's, it's it's kind of this whole circle back. All right.
Judy Tsuei (00:03:28) - Beautiful. Because it started out as you felt potentially self-conscious about your language and now you've written a whole book. So like, what a beautiful arc that is to have come around to write.
Soo Jin Lee (00:03:39) - And Linda and I have talked a lot about this of like, what it means for us that we're writing this book as immigrants that have struggled and have various traumas related to language and learning English.
Judy Tsuei (00:03:52) - Yeah. Linda, can you tell us about your background? Oh, also, as an aside, I loved art therapy when I was in my eating disorder therapy, and I think it was the most powerful part of therapy.
Linda Yoon (00:04:02) - It led to like one of the biggest breakthroughs. So I'm glad that you still incorporate it into your work, and I hope that anybody gets an opportunity to, like, do that. I think it's so amazing. Ah, hi.
Linda Yoon (00:04:13) - My name is Linda. I have a similar story somewhat as Susan. We didn't grow up together. I grew up in mostly San Diego where it was predominantly white neighborhood at the time, but I also immigrated when I was ten from South Korea, which is pretty similar, where my story is a little different. My family came in with skilled professional visa. My dad had a job as an engineer, which got him a job from Korea to us, his company just transfer him. So I had a different background. However, in the book I do talk about our family has this generational violence and trauma that we have experienced that didn't just go away because we immigrated to us. And also my journey with finding out I'm neurodivergent, having ADHD, and how that was not a thing in Asian culture or for girls in general, and how that might model minority myth and how I was expected to excel.
Linda Yoon(00:05:12) - But something is missing for me. Something's not going well. So that is a big part of my story that. I was able to make sense way later in my adulthood, finding out that, oh, my brain just works differently. You know, it's not bad or worse, it's just different. And also figuring out how do I how do my generation intergenerational trauma like ends with me? Like how do I create new narrative, new ways of family that I don't pass down the abuse that I have experience?
Judy Tsuei (00:05:46) - Yeah, yeah. I would love to ask you about the ADHD and being diagnosed because recently, like in the last few months, a psychiatrist suggested to me, she's like, I think you might have ADHD. I'm like, what? Because on the surface it doesn't present like that. Like growing up Asian, you weren't given the option of being neurodivergent. It's like you're going to get straight A's and be really good at school. So I don't know, you know, like so I muscled my way through and it didn't it just felt like, oh, that normal pressure that Asian parents generally put on their kids.
Judy Tsuei (00:06:20) - But also, you know, being a woman, how it presents differently. It's not like the outward demonstrations of behavior. It's more of an internal thing. And so I would love for you to talk about that, because I think when I realized this and I shared it on like my LinkedIn, other people are like, oh my gosh, that's totally my story. Like I did not know. And so I would love to hear, like what you would like people to know about that, about your ADHD journey.
Linda Yoon (00:06:46) - Yeah. And whenever I share, there's so many people nowadays like I relate so much, you know, and I also want to get tested. I might be neurodivergent. Like, they feel like they found they might have found the answer. What? They have been struggling so long. Like in my story, I definitely talk about how I felt like something's really wrong with me because I just cannot do what my other Asian peers are doing, or my parents telling me that I should be able to do it just didn't click for me.
Linda Yoon (00:07:19) - Like if something did not interest me, like it was so hard for me to get through and I will always late. I was a little late for this to my channel. Like, I'm optimistic about my time. When it takes 20 minutes to get there, I'm just like, okay, I can get there 15 minutes. I'm very optimistic, I have to say, and this is an ongoing conversation that I do have. I mean, I do make an effort, you know, like it's just harder for me in general. And so there is some those nuances that people may just thought it was just me not trying. That's what my parents used to tell me. Like, I'm just not trying, you know, like because my parents are not there somehow. And my sister wasn't like that. So that was an interesting aspect. And then also being growing up in predominantly a white neighborhood, being very, one of very few Asian immigrant kid, oh, my East Asian, South Asian immigrant students, you know, classmates were doing so well.
Linda Yoon (00:08:23) - Like they learn English really quick. They're excelling. They're getting straight A's. I was really struggling to, um, that my white teacher actually made a comment like, you know, there may be something really wrong with Linda, which really, really made my parents upset. And like, that's not an answer. Like, you cannot be like that. So they start making me study like, got me like tutors. And I mean, I feel mixed about it because in some ways, yes, because of the fear and that person like being accountable, like having a tutor who's accountable that I, I did, you know, did improve on my grades. I started getting mostly A's. However, those were very painful, torturous time for me as a child as well. Um.
Judy Tsuei (00:09:08) - Yeah. And when it when you say like because you're a woman too, it's often misdiagnosed or it's not diagnosed, what is what are the symptoms that you're for? Most women are experiencing that they might not realize is potentially being neurodivergent.
Linda Yoon (00:09:22) - Yeah. For speaking for ADHD there are three types that are given. They are hyperactive, inattentive and combined, which is a combination of hyperactive and inattentive. And for most women, ADHD type they have is inattentive generally traditionally without ADHD. More like a, you know, white boy acting out. That's where a lot of those images of ADHD come from, back in 90s and even 2000. So if you're not white and you're not a male and you're quiet, perhaps, but spacey or not really, they're like, they wouldn't suspect that. They were just like, okay, she's just kind of quiet. And I think there was this cultural, um, interest like pixie girl, kind of like a quirky pixie girl. So it's like you may have ADHD, but they just start your quirky. They never expected ADHD. But you know, just girls who have inattentive issues. Like one good example is that when I was in first grade, you know, my first time being in school for long hours, you know, teachers writing down certain things on the board, giving up teaching lecture a little bit.
Linda Yoon (00:10:37) - And I'm just, like looking like I'm paying attention. Like I have my hands on my chin. I know how to, like, look at the, you know, the board. But in my head I'm daydreaming like I'm not there mentally. I'm thinking about what I want to eat for dinner, what cartoon I have to capture, what kind of gift I want to get. That was my school life in my first grade, and I thought, because that's how I am, and looking around other kids, I thought everybody was also daydreaming and pretending to focus to pay attention to the teacher. So you never know. They might have mastered because I've been told I have to look paying attention because if I started looking around, my mom was like, no, you gotta pay attention. So I got really good at masking, acting like I'm paying attention. But you may not know there's something else going on. So those are things that girls definitely pick up because we're supposed to be certain way in Korea.
Linda Yoon (00:11:34) - Growing up, I was told girls need to be quiet. Girls need to stay still. Listen to societal and family expectations. I have learned and have adjusted to really suppress my ADHD symptoms for a long time.
Judy Tsuei (00:11:49) - Yeah, I think that masking is like such a big part of what a lot of Asian Americans do. In the very beginning of the book, you both talk about trauma and the different types of trauma. So there's like the intergenerational trauma, the trauma that you experience. You know, speaking of trauma, Suyin, can you tell us about your story and how that trauma manifested in your world? Because when I was reading your story, I was like, oh my God. I used to get migraines all the time in junior high. And I still get them. And like, I keep telling myself, like, it's a physical thing. Like, I know if I don't eat well, if I don't sleep well and I go surfing and the sun is bright, I'm going to get a migraine.
Judy Tsuei (00:12:23) - But I had never thought, wait a minute, could there be other things that are like. And it wasn't until recently I was in a therapy session and something had happened with my ex-husband. Like, right. It had happened like two hours prior to that, and during the session, I started seeing the blurry spot, like all the telltale signs of like, me getting a migraine. And I was telling the therapist, I, I'm about to get a migraine, you know, like, hold on just one moment. I'm going to go get them migraine medicine and stuff. And she's like, that's acute stress. And so it was like the first time that I saw that direct correlation because it had happened so shortly afterwards. But can you tell me about what you experienced, Susan.
Soo Jin Lee (00:13:02) - Yeah, I think uh, when I introduced myself, I've noted that I grew up as an undocumented immigrant. And so growing up in an undocumented household, it means that there's a lot of secrets. And I think a lot of people can relate to that.
Soo Jin Lee (00:13:15) - If you're just living in an Asian household or just maybe just an immigrant household in general, right? There's always the secret, see? And don't, you know, lay out your laundry for anyone to see all of that. Right. But ours felt so deep and it was so direct, like in the way where society have pulled us, not just within our culture, but just where I was living and the way that media portrays how undocumented immigrants are, that this really had to be a complete secret, to the point where we don't even talk about it between ourselves. Right. And so till this day, I don't think there was a direct conversation around being undocumented within my family, with my parents. And that's not something that we've talked about. I think about it and I'm like, I don't even know what language that is outside of English because my parents are monolingual Korean. And so I grew up with this big secret. And the way that we explain this trauma carries in our in our body.
Soo Jin Lee (00:14:20) - And I think at this point, if you're looking into psychology, if you've been reading a lot of, you know, self-help books, too, we're starting to discover and talk about this a lot more, where the way that our mental health and emotional health really chemically and physically resides in our body, and the way that we continue to carry that into all places of our lives because we're carrying our bodies all over the place. Right. And so even the way that Linda was describing the masking, right, these are all ways that we are physically carrying the stress. And, Judy, you just explained it as well. And so I continued to carry that into my childhood and into my adulthood. And I thought, because my mom has a pretty weak, quote unquote, the way that she describes it, immune system. Right. And and that is also her coming from her own trauma and not understanding that her quote unquote, weak immune system is actually has a lot to do with the stress response. And she doesn't understand that, you know, when she is stressed that she feels weaker and that she is more actually prone to getting sick.
Soo Jin Lee (00:15:28) - Right. And so she's always just told me, this is in our gene. Like, my mom gets sick very often, especially during certain seasons. And I get that. And that's been passed down to you. And so she understands in a way that this intergenerational physical element that we carry our genes, but not it has complete separation with the mental health, though, right, because of the stigma that we carry. And so for me, that was exactly the way that I understood my body as well, is that I, I just innately have a weakened immune system because that was passed down to me from my mom. But I would have sometimes I would just have insomnia. And these are elements that are very directly like correlated to stress, right? Like we understand now as adults and me as a professional, that if I am having anxiety, that that manifests in a way where I'm having insomnia, like I'm not sleeping because my thoughts are racing and I'm thinking about all the different things in my day that's going to happen.
Soo Jin Lee (00:16:37) - That hasn't happened all my past. Everything is just coming all at once in my head, right? But I lived with that anxiety throughout my teenage years, and because my mom also had insomnia and she would get up, I would hear her right, I'm not sleeping, and I would hear her in the middle of the night, get up, getting a cup of tea or water using the restroom, and she's just going in and out of the house. And that was her way of also having insomnia and dealing with anxiety. And I and I thought that was just part of us. Right. That's just who we are. That's just the gene that we have. But I had no idea that that's what it was, right, until I started really studying. Also, like my own journey of trauma and what this meant through the therapy sessions. And I began to connect the dots where I would have specific types of conversations with my parents, or I would have very specific conversations with my friends, or have a very stressful moment of like having to deal with a lot of people and then coming home and then starting to experience these migraines in a very intense way.
Soo Jin Lee (00:17:49) - And because the migraines were starting to get very intense and they were happening at very specific moment, I was able to connect those dots. Right. Just kind of like the way that you describe it, Judy, as well, that you started talking about it and then and then you realize, wait, this is that's actually has a correlation. And so that's how it occurred for me as well, that I started noticing that my migraines were actually correlated with stressful events. And so this is part of the work that we do and the work that we talk about in our book a lot is the way that our body responds to stress and the way that we really need to start taking care of our body in order for us to be able to take care of our mental health as well.
Judy Tsuei (00:18:29) - In your book, too, you share a lot of stories first hand narratives from people of all different Asian American backgrounds, of all different, you know, generations and immigrant status and whatnot. You also share different exercises that people can do.
Judy Tsuei (00:18:46) - Journaling prompts mindfulness practices to, you know, kind of take what they're reading and you even encourage in the book, like, if this is triggering in any way or if there is any sort of feelings like just be kind, give yourself the Compassion was a huge section of your book as well. One of the things that you have just mentioned to is, you know, the secrets. And it being like an open secret. So everybody knows the secret and nobody's like addressing it. And I just I had forgotten that that was so much of my upbringing, too. Like there was always secrets that you knew. Were there. And we're kind of alluded to or, or even just more prominent because it was purposely not being talked about when any normal, you know, kind of healthy, rational response would be like, okay, well, we need to address this. And so I think, you know, like we mentioned before, we going on so much of what you share here is putting into words potentially different people's experiences and being able to see it in so many first hand narratives and maybe identifying like, oh my gosh, I know exactly what that person went through, or I went through something similar.
Judy Tsuei (00:19:51) - One of the other things that you shared in your story too, was you even started dating someone because you realized you didn't. You couldn't get a license to drive and made excuses about, I don't I don't even need to drive, I don't care. But then dating someone who had a car so that you could get to places. And I think that that sort of survival that we all do to get what it is that we need, but it never feels like good because you're not doing it in that kind of way that, you know, like the the aligned reason and the. Truth to it. And so I would love for you to talk about, you know, some of the boundaries that potentially people can think about. Because I think in Asian families, especially because we don't talk about it, then there's no adult figure or teacher or anybody showing you how to move through life. And so you're figuring it out on your own. And then because they your potentially your parents, if they were immigrants, had their own stilted development in whatever trauma they experienced, then they're looking at you to navigate this new country, to navigate the language.
Judy Tsuei (00:20:58) - And then the measurement is like so strong, like the expectation, you don't even know where you begin or somebody else ends. And so I would love for you to speak about that. Like the boundaries. Yeah.
Linda YOon (00:21:08) - So one of the chapters, like you mentioned talks about boundaries, because that's one of the questions that we get a lot as therapists is, how do I deal with my mom, who was constantly just knocking on my door and as adults, right like that. That was my upbringing. And I continue to experience that. And I have kids of my own, and I cannot get my mom to just stop bothering my kids. And you know all of this, right? Or organize the kitchen or it's it's it's a thing. And in a lot of Asian family households, especially the ones that where, you know, you may be the caregivers to your parents. Right. And that's what is expected sometimes in our culture, too. And so there's different ways that we think about boundary. And you use the word duty in measurement.
Linda Yoon (00:21:55) - And this is a very popular word in the world of psychology, especially when it comes to family therapeutic work, and when if you know you have gone to see a therapist before who does not exactly understand the cultural dynamic and the family dynamic issues that are all of these historical elements that we talk about in the book, then they will define all of these households as enmeshed, and that that is unhealthy because all of us should have our own identity outside of our own family's identity. We should all have our own individual boundaries that we're comfortable with, and we should stay in it. And that is what defines health. Except it really doesn't work. That's not how it works in our family.
Soo Jin Lee (00:22:42) - But life doesn't actually like, spit into little boxes.
Linda Yoon (00:22:46) - Right? Like, wouldn't that be fun? Wouldn't that be.
Judy Tsuei (00:22:49) - Wild?
Linda Yoon (00:22:50) - So, so we really wanted to redefine the way just not even just about a measurement, but the way that we look at health in general and reconstruct that right in our in our minds.
Linda Yoon (00:23:05) - We want to unlearn that, because the way that health is defined, especially in mental and emotional world of psychology, it looks in a very boxed way, even the way that we are diagnosed, just like Linda mentioned about the ADHD too. Like we boxed in the way that specific things should look like and ways that family should look like. And so I just want to put that out there first, that we're going to just unscramble that. Right. And then we want to look at boundaries in multiple different layers. And some of these might land okay or well with you and some of them are not going to, but that's okay. And you're just going to go through the exercise of thinking about boundaries and multiple different elements and see what works for you and what doesn't work for you and your family. And so we've defined just a few in the book, and one of them is a physical boundary, although one is an emotional boundary, the other one is time boundary. And this is the one that people don't think about the most.
Speaker 3 (00:24:09) - And then other other things are like material boundaries. There's a lot more than you can go through, but this is just a starting place. And so the physical boundary has everything to do with the physical comfort. And so having a physical space where maybe, you know, certain conversations need to take place outside of your home so that you know that your physical boundaries are taking place. And so, you know, you know that your mom is going to talk to you about this and that, and you can't stop her from bothering you about certain things. And that that perhaps is part of your dynamic. And that's okay. But I have seen certain clients. Then when we talk about physical boundaries, like I said, they're going to step out of the house to have that conversation. And although they would like to, you know, ideally have this beautiful conversation face to face with a cup of coffee with their mom. That's just not going to be the case with their parents. So then we're just going to have this conversation over the phone or the other way, if it's even more triggering that they are going to voice each other through the text.
Linda Yoon (00:25:14) - And that's the thing that a lot of Asian parents are using now because they don't really.
Linda Yoon(00:25:18) - Text to text and so they'll just voice over.
Linda Yoon (00:25:21) - Like their thoughts. So then it's sitting there. So whenever I'm ready to, you know, catch up on their thoughts, then I will go ahead and and have that conversation right. And so those can be physical. And that goes into the time boundary that I just mentioned to. It's being able to say, okay, this is not the time for this right now. And so I'm going to step away and I'm going to come back to it. And I think that that part of coming back to it is an important element to include within the family dynamics is if you don't come back to it, it becomes that open secret again, right? It's just lingering in the air. It's just this elephant in the room and we're continuously just building the tension. And so how, how and when I'm going to come back to these certain conversations or certain needs are part of our setting the boundaries.
Judy Tsuei (00:26:06) - That's really helpful. I think one, it's helpful to understand, like however we would envision like a perfect way that health looks like life is fluid and everything's always changing. And we're also working with people who, you know, even if we're in therapy, other people may not be in therapy. And so we are navigating that as well. And I'm so curious because you created the Yellow Chair Collective. Can you tell me about that? The one of my early podcast guests was Sharon Quan, because she had written, you know, those pieces in the Huffington Post. And just I didn't even think about this until maybe a couple of years ago. I was working with a South Asian woman, and she had mentioned going to therapy and how she had specifically selected a therapist who had the same cultural and ethnic upbringing and like, wait a minute, you can do that. And I just didn't even think about it. And it has made a huge difference with the therapist who I work with now, because then, you know, I can even say words in Mandarin and she knows exactly what I mean.
Judy Tsuei (00:27:11) - Or just when I'm alluding to, let's say, a relative like, she knows that's my dad's, you know, sister versus my mom's sister or, you know, just like something like that. So I would love for you to share about the Yellow Chair Collective.
Linda Yoon (00:27:24) - Oh yeah, little collective. So it started as a solo practice back in 2018. I met in a nonprofit community mental health setting where we work mostly with first generation, sometimes older immigrants and also Asian Americans. But mostly we have worked with immigrants, refugees from East and Southeast Asia and their their families. And while we're working there, we just saw a lot of gaps of services, how it was fulfilling the services, but also like there's still a lot of needs. And we also saw that the ABA were very, you know, very low income. There were some state federal support. And if you have resources to go see anybody, you had a support. But there was a big gap between people with commercial insurance. People can, you know, pay a certain amount, but not a low income.
Linda Yoon (00:28:13) - Right. So that and how there's gap of language capacity and culturally competent or sensitive or responsive as different personnel services that, um, Asians and Asian Americans were not able to get. So that's something that Susan and I always talked about. And also bringing more holistic care. A lot of places that we have worked in the past where a lot of medical model, which is very like you have to fit into criteria for diagnosis and you have to follow very strict treatment plan or your insurance will not cover you, that kind of aspect. There's a lot to say to that. But so we really want to bring more holistic care for Asian Asian Americans. That's something that we discussed. Maybe we will do someday together. I got a little headstart with moving to private practice, and then sharing is one of my first employees that we therapists that we had on our team. And when time was right, Susan and I became business partners co-directors of Yellow Cheer Collective. I do want to note that Yellow Check collected. A lot of people think like, is it because you're like Asian American? This is a conversation we definitely have a lot.
Linda Yoon (00:29:25) - Oh yeah, that was one of my thoughts.
Judy Tsuei (00:29:26) - I was like, oh, it's because it's Asian.
Linda Yoon (00:29:29) - I know. I have to say, there was no racial intention to that. Uh, it happened to be my favorite color growing up. It was a color that gave me a lot of comfort, solace, and it just represented joy, hope, resilience and growing up in Korea. As an immigrant, you're not racialized. So like yellow was not like something that was associated with my race, right? So it was my favorite color since I was at age five. Honestly, I've been obsessed with that color. So I always told myself and other people who knew my obsession was yellow, that if I ever create something, I'm going to have yellow in it. And I told all my therapist friends to, and before I even knew I was going to have a private practice, that I'm like, I'm gonna name it yellow tier because I'm gonna get Yellow Chair as my first therapist. Here, which I did, which I named it.
Linda Yoon (00:30:21) - Just want to say that some people are like, oh, are you trying to reclaim yellow? I'm like, I mean, I guess it's up to people's interpretation too. But that was not my intention. Yeah. So during Covid and also anti-Asian hate crimes rising, that's when people start to really look for Asian Asian-American therapists. Before then, we actually were told, like, you cannot have successful private practice just focusing on Asian clients. Asian clients don't seek out therapy and statistics. The data did tell us that Asians were least likely seek mental health services, right? So in the beginning, our, you know, both of our practice, about maybe half of our practice were Asian. I definitely had a lot of non-Asian clients. And then it was during 2020, 2021, 2022. Like it just became like pretty much everyone became Asian clients because now people are seeking specifically who could understand the culture, who could understand what I'm going through. Like, I don't have to try to explain to you what this, you know, means.
Linda Yoon (00:31:27) - And we just like growing. We start having therapists who want to work with us, who see our mission. And I want to I want to be in the community. And. Yeah, and then we just grew. Now we are at 40 therapists in California and New York, and we have about 17 languages capacity as well.
Judy Tsuei (00:31:44) - That's amazing. And I love hearing that because when I was doing research for my book proposal, it was the same that Asian Americans are the least likely to seek therapy. And when they do, it's because something severe like it's like you're at the end of your rope. So the hope is that by normalizing conversations around mental and emotional health and people can go seek that kind of support. And I think, you know, if you were raised with like keeping secrets, then it's difficult to speak up and to use your voice. So there was a chart that you have in the book where you talk about learn beliefs, and then you talk about alternative beliefs. And I think that the work that you're doing, the clients who come to see you, it's learning and unlearning those beliefs regularly.
Judy Tsuei (00:32:25) - There's one other question that I wanted to ask because there's so much other stuff, but homeostasis in your body and in your families, I think kind of that goes back to what you were saying before of redefining what a healthy dynamic looks like. And, you know, I think if you were raised to get straight A's, then there's probably a part of you who has tried to seek perfection or like overachieving and that maybe there's another way to be and maybe there's like another way to find that balance. And it doesn't involve go, go, go and like do do do. So can you speak to the homeostasis idea that you shared in the book?
Soo Jin Lee (00:33:08) - Yeah. So when we I wanted to introduce the concept of homeostasis because this book is about like, you know, mental health and psychology. And in the world of psychology, I've heard this a lot. Oh, when I was studying this idea of homeostasis and the ways that, like, chemically, our body finds different ways that it balances itself out. Right? Kind of the way that like my my brain was happening at this.
Soo Jin Lee (00:33:32) - Exactly. That is like a homeostasis thing that is happening, right? That it was overcompensating in certain ways so that I can survive in the moment. So it was forcing me to be in bed in one way. Right. And so I was thinking about this concept a lot when I was studying and when I started doing the identity work and the intersection identities and the intergenerational trauma pieces, and how we look at how we define trauma and the ways that we are only seeing it in one way, one lens, and how this medical model sees it as a deficit. Right. And of course, a trauma is not something that is easy to talk about per se, or easy to overcome per se or and so there's not one way that we can go about that. We can treat this right because there is no treatment for it. And so I wanted to talk about homeostasis, where it's a balance of everything, like how do we find balance just like our body is finding balance chemically. Like how do we find balance in our family? How do we find balance in society? How do we find balance within our own identity? Because one of the questions that we get asked a lot is like, I feel like I'm not good enough as an Asian.
Soo Jin Lee (00:34:53) - If I'm with my family, I don't feel like I'm a good enough, like American. Um, especially like the way that I grew up, right? Like I'm undocumented. And so whenever I call myself an Asian American, that American part kind of gave me that ache. Like, oh, am I though? Am I American? Right? And so there's in a lot of ways where I hear this, where people feel like I'm not enough of anything. At the end of the day. Right? And so then how do we read the fine balance within ourselves so that I'm actually 100% of this, 100% of that I'm 100% overall, this is who I am. This is how I can reclaim myself, how I can reclaim my history, my family, and the way that we are and how we belong in society.
Judy Tsuei (00:35:43) - You know, I hope that people buy the book because there's so much about I think for me, one of the things that have helped that I've learned how to do very quickly is like reframe something that's happened that could potentially be negative or a challenge and then see, you know, draw out the blessing or the gift or the the lesson, whatever it is that's in it.
Judy Tsuei (00:36:05) - And I think that in your book, you also talk about what are the good things that we can pull from, you know, these experiences, like what are the traits that we've adopted, like resiliency and, you know, tenacity and like creativity and being able to do hard things. And I think that that's so important because the past has happened and we can't change that. But we in this moment have opportunities to rewrite or write a new chapter and like, continue to move forward. And by doing that now, we're also serving ourselves in the future, like whoever that future version of us is, we're growing into, you know, that version. So every time I close the interviews, I always ask if you could say fuck saving face about something, what would you say? Fuck saving Face about? So I'd love to hear what each of you would say to that.
Linda Yoon (00:36:56) - I'd say f*ck saving face about having secrets. Open secrets. Tell your story. I claim my identity as growing up undocumented. And that's okay to say thank you.
Speaker 6 (00:37:13) - Linda's thinking.
Soon Jin Lee (00:37:14) - Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing to be like, be open even when it's hard. I mean, of course there will be times that it'll be better than others, you know, in stage of your life, seasons of life, different story. You feel like empowered to talk about and share. And when you do share, other people who resonate and you start creating community because you're able to acknowledge what's really happening that everybody is, you know, being secret about to save face. But once you're actually being authentic and letting it out, other people also resonate and will be in community with you. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (00:37:55) - Yes. I love that you emphasize the community and the connections part of it and being authentic, because I always tell people, you know, like my whole entire branding and marketing agency has been built on word of mouth referrals because I always show up exactly the same in all aspects of my life, like I will openly share with you like, oh, this is happening in my life, or you know, this and that.
Judy Tsuei (00:38:14) - And I think people are surprised, but it immediately forms a closer connection and like a more meaningful one. And, you know, people have often commented, I just actually heard this recently, the other day from a dad of my daughter's school. I was picking her up from the playdate, and we just had a little bit of time to chat, and he was asking like, how long have you been living in San Diego? And I was like, well, you know, we were living in Taiwan before and we probably been back for like 4 or 5 years now. And he's like, really? We've been here the same amount of time and you have this ridiculous community, like just from like hearing about all of the people who, you know and the people you talk to. And I think that I get that comment a lot, like you always seem to find community wherever you go. And I think it's because I don't know another way of being other than being authentic. And I think people hunger and crave that.
Judy Tsuei (00:39:05) - They want that genuine connection. And so the more that we tell our stories, the more that we don't have secrets, and the more that we can find that community and create it.
Soo Jin Lee (00:39:14) - Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (00:39:16) - Thank you. Where can people buy your book and where can people learn more about the Yellow Chair Collective?
Soo Jin Lee (00:39:21) - So there are a few ways you can purchase our book right now. If you go to Yellow Chair collective.com, which is our website, we do have a book page where it leads to where you can purchase a book, or you can Google where I belong soothingly and Linda you and find a bookstore that will sell our book. We also have partnered with Bel Canto Books, which is a Filipino owned bookstore in Long Beach, and you can get our signed copy through there. I believe it's Bel Canto books.com that you can you can order from there too.
Judy Tsuei (00:39:58) - Oh my goodness. Well, the next time I drive up to LA I'll have to stop by and check it out. I love bookstores.
Soo Jin Lee (00:40:03) - Thank you so much for your time.
Linda Yoon (00:40:06) - Yeah, thank you for your time as well.
Judy Tsuei (00:40:12) - Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode, and if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit Wild Heart Words [dot] Com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
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Keywords: Asian American, woman, author, mental health, empowerment, taboo topics, trauma, Asian American identity, immigrant, undocumented, therapist, art therapy, Korean, South Korean, generational trauma, neurodivergent, ADHD, therapy, cultural competence, Yellow Chair Collective, homeostasis, unlearning, relearning, beliefs, authenticity, community, saving face, boundaries, wellness, cultural context.
