EP 115: Reimagining Relationships with Sana Akhand: A Journey of Healing and Growth
In this episode, we're diving deep into the enlightening wisdom of Sana Akhand, a marriage coach whose out-of-the-box approach to relationships has captured hearts worldwide.
Sana shares her refreshing take on reinvigorating relationships, underlining the importance of creating space for oneself and one's partner. Using her expertise, she explores how epigenetics can profoundly shape our relationships, shedding light on how ancestral patterns impact our present connections.
At the core of Sana's philosophy lies the crucial practice of inner work and healing. She passionately urges listeners to break free from societal pressures, guiding them on a journey toward uncovering genuine happiness and contentment in their relationships.
Throughout our conversation, Sana emphasizes the harmony of light and shadow within both life and relationships, urging us to embrace every aspect of ourselves and our partnerships. Her personal narrative of living separately from her husband struck a chord with audiences, sparking a viral wave of inspiration for couples to explore unconventional paths to deepen their bond.
Join us as we delve into the profound insights of Sana Akhand, and embark on a journey to discover a fresh perspective on love, healing, and growth in relationships.
Download a sample of my book:
How to Disappoint Your Parents in 10 Shameless Steps: A Modern Asian American Guide
Takeaways
Create space for yourself and your partner to be whole individuals with unlimited potential.
Understand the impact of epigenetics on relationships and the patterns that are passed down through generations.
Engage in inner work and healing to break free from societal expectations and find true happiness in relationships.
Embrace the duality of life and relationships, and accept that joy and grief can coexist.
Challenge the belief that marriage is supposed to be boring and explore unconventional ways to revitalize relationships.
Episode Highlights
Chapters
00:00Introduction
06:08Living Apart Together Experiment
13:05The Intersection of Spirituality and Neurodivergence
36:02The Impact of Epigenetics on Relationships
Links Mentioned:
Judy Tsuei LinkedIn
Judy Tsuei Instagram
Sana Akhand website
There may be affiliate links included in this blog post.
Transcript:
Judy Tsuei (00:02.606)
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today.
Sana first found me on TikTok. I had posted something about divorce, I believe, or relationships. And she sent me a message and we were able to have this wonderful conversation about her unique approach to marriage, to revitalizing her marriage, to deepening her relationship with her husband and to not living up to what she had been told a relationship was supposed to look like given her family of origin.
So she's a love coach and the host of Thriving in Love podcast. Sana helps couples alchemize their emotional baggage into deeper connection and intimacy to unlock even more love. After she wrote this article about her experience with her husband, it went viral. It was published across multiple platforms. She was invited to be on different shows to talk about her experience.
She's on a mission to help couples create unconventional ways to make their relationships work for their most authentic selves. And I just love this idea of taking your life into your own hands and making it work for you because there's no one else who's going to be like you. I always say that from the beginning of time ever after there will never ever be another you. So the fact that we continue to try to mold ourselves to fit other paradigms, other dynamics, others,
expectations makes it very challenging for us to stay authentic and true to ourselves. And that daily emotional tax is very, very wearing. In fact, I was just on a mastermind call with my fellow Tory Burch Foundation fellows, and I promised that I would share about it. So if you follow me on LinkedIn, you would have seen these just beautiful pictures. And
Judy Tsuei (02:03.566)
The experience that we got with such influential people to have this intimate setting in which we could talk directly to them, in which we could learn from them, in which we could be in community with other business owners to share authentically what we cannot always share on social media, what we cannot always feel comfortable talking about in any other respect. And you don't get that unless you're...
with other people who are on a similar journey. And it's not the same journey. It's each of us being in our authentic journey. If you're a founder, your company very much reflects your own personal development. So being in community with these other people where we could talk about the mental load that we are constantly under, if we are managing a team, if you're doing payroll, if you are trying to do biz dev while...
also servicing the clients that you have. It's just a whole world. And then to layer on top of that the life that you have. For me, I'm a divorced mom, you know, and there's just so many other components to being a full human, but things that you can't always express. It's almost like speaking another language to someone else who's not fluent in that dialect. And so therefore there are certain things that only someone else who can understand that language.
would be able to grasp. And that's why community is so important. And that's that mental load, anything that we can do to lighten that mental load, I believe is so important, which is why I appreciate Sana, her story about how she basically lived apart, both her and her husband agreed to live apart for a year to explore and learn about themselves while they were still married. So they were able to recommit to their relationship in new ways. And
Tiffany Doofu, who's the president of the Tory Burch Foundation, an unbelievable, completely inspiring human who advocates for women and girls. She also shared with us that that was something that she had to do. She had to navigate her marriage to her husband again because the person who she had become was different than the person when they first met, when they first committed to their marriage. So I highly encourage you to listen to this episode and then ask yourself,
Judy Tsuei (04:16.398)
What unconventional ways do you need to be living your life? What unconventional ways can you be aligning yourself to who you are now, giving yourself an opportunity to catch up to yourself? Because the other, we were able to listen to Michelle Norris speak to us, I got to approach her one -on -one. And one of the things that she said is now at her age, where they're in their 60s and in this next chapter of their lives that,
She said, I would love to have dinner with the woman who I have become. And what a profound way to articulate just all of the challenges, all of the heartache, heartbreak, joyful moments, triumphs, all of that to make you who you are now and to give yourself an opportunity to know that person, to know who you are now. So without further ado, here is our episode.
All right, today we have Sana Akhand here and she is a marriage coach who actually found me on TikTok. I started posting on TikTok sample chapters from my memoir that I'm working on. And I'm really excited because the publishing house I'm very interested in just got back to me that they're gonna move it to the next step. So we will see what happens. But the best part about it is that when I got on a call with Sana, she was saying, you know, how much she appreciated how I went there.
and that's a lot of what this book is gonna be about. And so when we got on our call, we realized that there are so many opportunities to use storytelling for individuals to process through, you know, having immigrant parents, growing up in a certain culture that's often at odds with the culture that you live in, all of that kind of good stuff. So more on that to come, but I'm gonna turn it over to Sana because you have such a unique story of how...
I'm not sure of the timeline if you were a marriage coach before you chose to do the experiment with your husband or you became that afterwards, but I would love for you to tell me more about it. Yeah, no, thank you first of all for having me and congratulations on going to the next step. That is extremely exciting as a fellow writer myself. I'm hearing some good news on that side. Yeah, so I actually became a marriage coach because of my experience of living apart together.
Judy Tsuei (06:37.07)
to reignite the spark in our relationship. So my life before, I was an entrepreneur running a community in New York called Friendship Club for people to connect outside of professional networking. So that was something that I created from my own pain of feeling so lonely in New York and having your entire identity just being your career and then your friends are just your coworkers and you're going to the same places. There was just not a lot of excitement.
but like New York City is like the greatest city in the world. So I was like, why is that? So I found the gap in the market and created Friendship Club, which was so fun. But then I don't know if you felt this, but the entrepreneurial journey, I feel like is the greatest personal development journey of your life. I say this all the time to people. Yeah. Literally. Yeah.
I don't think it's for the faint of heart. And I think that if people are willing to heal deeper layers of their self -worth, their confidence, their voice, all of those things, that's how you actually can unlock more layers in success and in your career as a CEO, as a founder, what have you. So I had that block. And I was determined to be like, why am I having such a hard time?
charging more, charging my worth, like a lot of self -worth things were coming up for me. And then I just felt really caged in. Like I needed freedom. I just needed to be more creative and expressive, but being stuck in a one bedroom apartment in New York City, 500 square feet, no outdoor space, I was just like, you know when a bird is just like stuck in a cage, like that's how I felt. I'm like journaling every day.
And I'm like, I just want my own apartment. I want my own creative space. I just want to be on my own, but I also don't want to leave my husband. I love him very, very much. We have a great relationship. And, you know, I was like, just lost. I was stuck between these two worlds of like wanting to be free while also wanting to be in love and married. And so I shared that with my husband and I was just like, listen, I just don't really understand why I'm feeling this way. But like,
Judy Tsuei (08:55.79)
what do you think? And he was like, why don't we just like get our own places? Like we never had that opportunity when we were dating. I always lived with my parents and like, he always had a roommate. So we never had the opportunity to like have our own places and have that beautiful like sex in the city dating life in New York. And he also was craving it. He was like, I want my own apartment too. Like let's try it out.
And obviously that like set me on a spiral of like, what are people going to think? Like everyone's going to think we're separated. We're getting a divorce, yada, yada. And he's like, well, why do you give them so much power over your happiness? Right? Like, what if you just lived a life for you and not caring about what other people think? So I was like, all right, maybe I just won't share it on social media. So then we did it. I got my own apartment for three months. I didn't tell a soul.
And something inside of me told me to post it on TikTok. At the time I had like five followers. So I posted it, went viral, got featured on Business Insider and that article ended up on like the front page of Yahoo News. I had high school people reaching out to me on Instagram being like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. You're so famous. And I was freaking out. I was like, oh my gosh, I barely even told my friends. Now it's all over the world. So that was wild. And then I was like,
So the rest of 2022, I was living on my own, just trying to figure out like, why is this story going viral? And like, we were featured at, we were invited to ABC studios to be on the Tamron Hall show. So it was just like, publications after publications were reaching out to like have our story featured. While at the same time, I'm trying to figure out like, what, like, who am I? What do I want from this? Like, it was like the dark night of the soul in a very public way.
So that was a little scary, but then we got through it and he ended up getting a job offer in LA. So he was like, I think I'm going to take it. Like, I think we should move to LA. And I was like, well, yeah, I guess I'm ready to move back in together. And I was like, as long as we have space, like that was big for me, like our own rooms to have our creative space. So we did that. We moved to LA.
Judy Tsuei (11:12.174)
So now we're no longer living apart, but we're still being published in articles. New York Times covered our story. Good Morning America invited us on. And I'm still figuring out what is the point of this whole thing, right? What is the higher truth of what I'm going through right now? And then I started to receive messages from so many couples saying, I feel like I'm also stuck. I love my husband. I love my wife.
But I know that there is more love here for us. We don't know how to access it. And can you give us some pointers? We love your story. It really resonated. But we don't have the financial means to live in our own apartments, et cetera. So I started really deep diving into the research of like, I read Esther Perel's book, Meeting in Captivity, just like a lot of research on the Gottman method and stuff on why do long -term relationships end up hitting that rut?
of like staleness, stagnant, when the love is still there, like why does it have to be that way? I thought about like my parents, every single person that I know that's been married, they just like, are just kind of going with emotions. And I knew that there was a better way, because my husband and I figured it out for ourselves. And I was like, okay, how can I make a framework around this? How can I teach this to others? And yeah, I just realized that space, right? Like space.
Physical space, emotional space, mental space, spiritual space is incredibly important to feel like you have enough space to be a whole person on your own with unlimited potential to be who you want to be, while simultaneously creating more space for another whole person to also be a whole, like have their ambitions and their dreams.
simultaneously growing with yours. So that's the book I'm working on right now. There's so many questions that I want to ask you. One of the things that I want to ask, just because it's on my mind and I'm remembering it as you were talking, is you saying this feeling of space and kind of this spiritual space, like feeling in your spiritual journey. And so we're talking about love and relationships, which...
Judy Tsuei (13:32.238)
A lot of my clients will say when they post on social media and they post about their personal life and their relationship, that's the post that gets the most traction. And I've also experienced like, you know, the same kind of thing. And my partner and I have been together for three and a half years. We're both divorced. We're both, we have kids, we have different custody schedules. And, you know, we joke with each other, like the longevity of the relationship.
has increased because of that, because we don't get a lot of time to see each other. We have to be really intentional. We have all these other demands, our career, our lives, like our personal interests. And so thinking of far ahead, even when I think about it, I was like, what if we live together? But then I just take off every month and I just go and live somewhere else for like a month or like, you know, or a couple of weeks or whatever. And he's like, yeah, totally. Like I'll always, you know, be around. And so.
figuring out ways that you can be in that relationship that's uniquely yours. And then, you know, there's so many people I know, I think because now I'm in my 40s that like, everyone's always saying like, well, it'd be really nice if we just had houses side by side. And like, we could just like, you know, or yes, exactly. Or have the commune where all of your friends are there, your kids can play together, all of that kind of stuff. So.
There was something in our first conversation we were talking about feeling kind of like an alien and like, you know, different and whatnot. And I wanted to ask about that spirituality. And then I want to dive into more of what you just shared. Yeah. So I never knew why I needed that space. Right. And then I realized during my research, during my deep, like dark night of the soul, that I'm neurodivergent. Like I am my brain does not operate the same way as my husband's brain does. He's able to have like.
a traditional job, like 24 hour cycle, all of those things and function at a really high capacity versus for me that causes me burnout. And I'm just like, why can I not fit like fit in with the rest of the world? Why is success so hard for me? So I started to really go inwards and tap into like my heart, my soul, and just like ask myself, like, what do I need in order to be successful in this world?
Judy Tsuei (15:46.414)
And that journey literally like it led me through deep inner child healing and like deep generational ancestral healing and just like really made me realize that like neurodivergent people are spiritual people. Like you're here for a different reason. You're here to heal.
your lineage and that's why we don't fit in with the people around us because you're usually the first one to walk that path in your family and the path is a lonely path so that you can go into your cocoon, your isolation, your cave and connect with God on a deeper level or like the universe or your higher self, whatever you believe in and I'm telling you like when I started so I
I started using plant medicine to heal these deeper wounds so that I can access my subconscious. That really just like connected me with God. And we just hung out and I asked him a bunch of questions and I was like, I need answers because like, this isn't okay. I need my life back, right? So he was like, well, you're not gonna get your life back, but what you're gonna get is something a lot.
better because you're going to get the answers that you have deep within that normal society cannot answer for you. So that literally eight months that I was living alone, I feel like I was just in a cocoon of love with God. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. The neurodivergency from the standpoint of spirituality is something that is not talked about because we see a lot about neurodivergency now that we've moved towards.
hopefully greater diversity, equity and inclusion work. And so I love what you're saying because, you know, whether my daughter is so cute, she's nine years old, they just had an inclusion event at school, like this is kind this week. And so they had a bunch of speakers coming in and one of the people said that they have ADHD and like, you know, this is how they learn to navigate the world. And then my daughter comes home and she goes, mom.
Judy Tsuei (17:54.222)
Do I have ADHD? Because when that person was talking about it, so many of the things that they were talking about were exactly the things that I experienced. And I was like, yeah, babe. I mean, like, we're all, all of our brains function differently. Something that I had already known that like her dad, you know, he has, I probably have like this late diagnosis of ADHD. So from an earlier age, helping her understand it's okay if your brain functions differently. And there are so many gifts and blessings that come with that. And,
Hopefully there'll be more of that environment of understanding like the differences are so wonderful because it's moving our world forward in the ways that we need to evolve now more than ever. Like looking at all the pain, all the struggles and the challenges and all of that kind of stuff. So I love like I want to put it on a poster and a t -shirt and wear it all around. No, honestly, I'm so passionate about it too because like they say it's a mental health illness and I'm like, no, like,
Our mental health is actually a sign from our soul telling us that, Hey, like, I need you to pay attention to me in a different way so that you can unlock more wisdom, more gifts, more like just magic in your life so that you can find your purpose and help others who have struggled with the same thing. And I do believe that we are heading into a new.
paradigm now where like, you know, plant medicine conversations are becoming more common and mental health is really starting to be seen as something that like cannot be ignored anymore. And it's extremely important for us to understand that one school system is not going to work for the entire population. Like one's way of being isn't going to work for an entire population. And like, we're not just diverse.
in the color of our skin and our upbringing, but we're extremely diverse in the way that we function as human beings. And you were talking about being a whole person, like having the space to be a whole person. And I think that not only do we just fundamentally, I feel like crave that, and it's so difficult because society, like the pressure of all the energy from trying to do what is supposed to be done is so big.
Judy Tsuei (20:08.174)
but then also making space for someone else's wholeness and someone else's like fullness. And that's a struggle, right? Because I always think it's fascinating that anybody gets along with anybody else because all of our unique experiences and the ways that we've interpreted them, even if we had like a shared, you know, we were all the same party, all of us are going to walk away with like a different memory or a different like vibe and energy about it. So how have you, I know like, you know,
Yes, we all, I highly advocate everybody do their own inner work for sure. Then how do you come together with someone else, especially, let's say their pace of growth is not at the same pace as yours. So you and your husband were able to come to this agreement and do these things simultaneously. What happens when you're not there? Yeah, and that happened because my husband is like really busy with his like.
job and at the time I just took a break from everything to go deep dive into my own world and there were times where I'm like I'm doing all this work and he's not like is this gonna work is this not but honestly detaching from being needing both of you to be on the same level at the same time it's not realistic it's not fair also quite frankly like there's things about him that I'm constantly learning.
Right? So I'm just like, he, as long as they are stimulating your mind in some way, shape or form, and you don't feel like they're dragging you down, I think that really helps. And remembering that, okay, maybe emotionally and spiritually, I am ahead, but maybe mentally and physically he is. And understanding that like we are two totally different human beings who are here to help each other in.
with our strengths and weaknesses. So yeah, maybe I do take on a little bit more of the emotional load, but then he'll take care of the house. Like anytime something breaks, I don't touch it. Like I've never taken out the trash. You know what I mean? So like remembering that there's like things, there's such a spectrum of things that need to go, that need to happen in order for a household to run smoothly, in order for a relationship to run smoothly, in order for humans to function fully. So make a list.
Judy Tsuei (22:30.158)
of all the things that they do, all the things that you do, and make sure that you feel like it's an equal energy exchange versus an equal give and take of actual things that you're doing for each other. Oh, equal energy exchange. That I very much love. And that was one of the things very early on because my partner's personality is very different from mine. He's much more OK with being like the stable, like your husband.
And I was just like, I need sensory stimulation. I need to like see new things. And so because he knows that about me, he will take me to places that he knows I will find beautiful and aesthetically pleasing or he'll plan trips to places that I've not been so that I can have that. Whereas like, you know, and so I think, yeah, being able to have that is so wonderful and expressing it, like finding the confidence to be able to express that and have that trust and respect for the other person.
So my curiosity now is, I think it's so amazing that you didn't tell anybody that you were doing it for several months and then the world knew about it. So that's quite the opposite end of the spectrum. And what did your family say about it? Like culturally, how do you identify? I know that there's intergenerational things. So can you talk about that? I am so happy you asked this question because this is like my favorite part of my story, honestly, because.
So at first, I remember when I first had the conversation with my parents. So I grew up with Pakistani parents. I am first -year American, but my parents are both from Pakistan. So when I first told my parents, hey, this is crazy, but I'm getting my own apartment, my dad was like, you're making the greatest mistake of your life. Why are you doing this? He's like, you're going to regret it. He's like, what you're searching for does not exist. He said those words to me. And I was like, dad, maybe that's true for you.
and in your world with your friends and your community. But if I don't try to find deeper love, I would rather live alone. Like I would rather not be married than live like this half life with my husband. And he's like, what's so wrong with living with a man? And I'm like, dad, like, come on, like socks everywhere. Like, I'm tired of cleaning up after this guy.
Judy Tsuei (24:48.814)
But surprisingly, my mom was really supportive and she would call me all the time and be like, what did you do today? You probably like have a clean house for the whole week. Like, what did you see today? Where did you go? And it actually brought us closer together at first. And then when I started doing the inner child healing and all that stuff and that all these memories started coming up for me, I realized how.
traumatic my upbringing truly was with my parents and so much of that we like bottle down and like put it away. But then when you start to unravel, you remember all of like the emotional abuse, the physical abuse, like all the trauma, right? So I remember like that really caused a riff in my relationship with my parents. So we actually ended up going no contact for six months because they weren't understanding and listening to me at the time. I also was just like.
newly remembering all this stuff and needed the space to like process. And then when we moved to LA, we had a, my cousin was getting married, so they came to LA for that. And it was the first time I saw them after going no contact with them. And my dad and like my husband and I were already living together at this time. And like, you know, we had a beautiful home in LA and we were just like really like at peace and really, really happy. And he saw all that and he was like, you did the right thing.
And I was like, wow, I never thought I would hear that from my dad. That was really healing. And then my mom actually also called me like a couple months later and she's like, after seeing your relationship now, I see how in pain you were. And she's like, I am so sorry for not being there for you and for letting you go no contact and like risking you like going.
into deeper depression and like, you know, leaving you in isolation. And I'm telling you, like when, you know, when you heal a mother wound, it feels like you have 10 tons of weight off your shoulders. And I felt so free for the first time in my entire life. And I realized that the freedom that I was deeply craving wasn't really a space thing at the end of the day. It was all those energetic traumas and generational curses and
Judy Tsuei (27:08.046)
all those things that my body was holding onto. And after that, I've just been like floating on cloud nine. I mean, the energy that you emit right now is so wonderful. And I appreciate that you shared about the mother wound because, you know, similarly, I became a neuro -linguistic practitioner. And during one of the exercises that took like all of 20 minutes, I was the demo that they brought on stage to do it. And I was focused on career. I wasn't even focused on my family.
What came through after that profoundly changed my relationship with my parents so that I'm so happy to see them now. I like want to hang out with them. And it happened immediately after that exercise. But I've realized, and this was something I was actually thinking about this week is, oh yeah, like it feels like the foundation got like remodeled. And so now it's actually everything that I'm doing is built on a different base.
and the base feels so much more stable. So then you feel so much more free and feel so much more light. And I, you know, I wish it for everyone. I think we all have, especially if you grow up with immigrant parents who were a lot in survival mode and, you know, just even thinking about the generation prior to them and, you know, all the political unrest and like all of that kind of stuff, like we're carrying all of that with us. And so I hope for everyone's sake that there's some semblance,
that you can get. And, you know, I think similarly to what you were talking about with plant medicine, if that person is no longer in your life, if that accessibility is not there, there are other ways in which we can hopefully find that closure or that, I don't even want to say closure, like healing. Acceptance. Yeah. Acceptance is a big word. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think it's, I think it's, I don't even think it's like, oh, I hope people have the opportunity to, I hope they realize that like,
At some point in life, I feel like we will hit a midlife crisis because all of this past emotional baggage comes knocking at your door, asking to be looked at. And if you don't look at it, that's usually when addictions start where you end up, you know, with unhealthy coping mechanisms because these things are trying to knock at your door, try to get your attention. Because I think as humans, our purpose on earth is to, you know, face this stuff, heal it, karmic loops that we're here to close that, you know, I wish.
Judy Tsuei (29:34.318)
Spirituality was more mainstream because this stuff is really important for us to function as proper humans. Yes, I think that not looking at spirituality as like a woo woo thing over here, but like to become a whole person. However you define spirituality, like I put modern family on in the background sometimes because it's just like easy and lighthearted and sweet. And, you know, the eldest daughter, she has her kids and then she was saying like,
I don't know what I believe in, but I do know that we took a trip up into the mountains and we woke up and it was super early and there were like deer over there. And, you know, I just felt so connected to something greater than myself. And that to me is also spirituality, like nature, being around the ocean, all of that. And so there are so many portals through which we can draw upon that energy and to be reminded of the interconnectedness as well as how
big we are as people and how small we are at the same time. The duality, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think when I realized that in myself is when I was able to accept my husband's whole different self into my world without it contradicting me. So like when I accept my human limitations and my spirit, like unlimited possibilities and having to make peace with that within my own self.
and not having to feel all the anxiety and depression and all of those mental health things that come with that experience and finding the balance and the yin and yang within myself is when I was able to unlock that next level of love in my relationship. And what you're saying too, I think, is a level of inner growth and personal maturity to be able to hold the duality.
Because I think when you're young, I mean, it's natural. Like you want things to be a certain way. You're trying to find your way in the world, like all of that. And I also realized, and it was this last year when I took a trip with my partner and like, you know, was still dealing with things with my ex -husband and like not having my daughter. And it was a holidays and just holding that deep sadness. And then also the great joy all at once, not having to say like, I'm going to shut that part off. I'm just going to focus on this. It's uncomfortable.
Judy Tsuei (31:53.358)
So uncomfortable. Yeah, but I think it makes your life that much richer because you get to feel so much more nuance and but I don't think we're able to do that until we get out of survival mode, right? So like when you are constantly feeling that fight, flight, freezer, fawn mode and those things are being activated within you and you can't have a grip on your reactions, you're never going to be able to.
consciously create that space within you for someone else's point of view to sit with peace inside of you. So that's why I think the mental health healing is so incredibly important. The nervous system regulation, the somatic therapy, the EFT, like all of the, you know, things that you went through as a child need to be faced so that you can get out of survival mode. And then is like that next step of, okay, now I can hold the duality.
expand my nervous system capabilities to hold more space for all of us. And then you also get to hold more joy. The way I experience life now, I'm just in awe all the time. I love the sunrises and the sunsets and the oceans and everything is just so much more beautiful. But yes, the grief is also so deep too. So deep. And
I appreciate that you're sharing like the fight flight, you know, all of those responses and where you were, because I think similar to you, you and I have that shared experience of like, that's where we were. And we had to go through that dark night of the soul and then to get to this place of healing and emotional maturity and all of that kind of, or spiritual maturity, I would say. And I feel like we're always newbies when it comes to spirituality too. The last, you know, month or so that's what I've been reflecting on is like,
I'm so happy. I'm so happy. And like, it's not like that fluttering happiness or - Oh, I get it. Yeah. There's nothing external. It's the joy that you feel within that just elevates everything. And there's just a sense of lightness and still purpose, working, all of that kind of stuff. But again, like there's just so much more like, I'm so grateful for -
Judy Tsuei (34:13.166)
this moment, whatever the moment is, something completely mundane. I'm so grateful for that. And it's wild because I remember before I lived apart, I was so annoyed with the mundane. I needed like more, more, more, more, more all the time and nothing was enough. And I was constantly depressed, constantly anxious, constantly feeling like I'm never going to fulfill this like potential that I think I have and just feeling so like I'm not living the life that I.
like came here to live. And I think it was because I just like created this whole picture perfect life based on external validation, what my parents would approve of what looks good on Instagram, what makes my husband happy and not once asking myself like, what do I want? And that's a hard question to answer. Because especially as immigrant children, because our whole life we're just been like,
my parents sacrifice so much for me to be here. I need to give, give, give, be there, be the reader, like support them and, you know, make enough money, give them money. I don't know if you had that experience, but just like that, even if you're not physically doing much, it's that energetic burden of like, my parents came here to give me a better life. And if I squander it, I'm like putting all of their sacrifices to shame. Absolutely. So I'm curious.
about your work. I mean, I could just continue talking to you. Like the whole time we were talking, I was like, so many more conversations in the work that you do as a marriage coach. What would you say is like the top thing that you wish people knew or the top thing that you see people coming to you about? Because I think what you just alluded to of the never having enough, never feeling enough, like if that is.
correlated to the question of what do I want? Those are just very hard things to answer because whatever answer you give, it won't ever feel like enough. And so how can you, what have you seen? Yeah. Something that comes up as a pattern often with my clients is they don't understand epigenetics and how that affects how they show up in relationships and how the way the relationships that they have with their caregivers are always going to be repeated in all of their relationships that they have as adults.
Judy Tsuei (36:31.566)
if they don't look at it, become aware of this pattern and consciously choose if they want to like react differently or if they want to keep repeating the pattern. So for instance, when it comes to things like shadow work, we do a lot of shadow work. So like, why is it so frustrating to you when your partner is like, you know, doing things on their own?
hanging out with their friends, playing video games, what have you. Like, where is that coming from? The partner that is irritated usually is just like, I just feel like they don't care about me. Most of the time, that is a wound that is being asked to look at from within them, where it's like, okay, where do you feel this void that you feel like you're obligated to your partner's time and energy to the level that you want it?
A lot of times it's because they have those insecurities and their wounds are being activated from childhood or their mother is carrying that wound that they didn't physically experience, but it's passed on to them through their DNA. So, you know, our DNA gets passed through seven generations. So sometimes like that's why I think plant medicine is so incredibly healing in these situations. So I do a lot of plant medicine ceremonies with my couples.
So they'll see that the wound that they carry isn't even theirs, and they're able to come to that acceptance and let it go and find even more love for their partner to just love them the way they show love instead of demanding and expecting more and more and more. I wish that we could, like, I just think that if someone could invent some sort of tool that could remove all of the layers in the stories that we put in front and in between us and someone else,
we would probably be wowed at the actual being who's standing in front of us and just be like, whoa, that's so cool. You are so awesome. Or look at all of you, all the colors of you. It's just remarkable. So when you're talking, I just keep thinking, yeah, we just keep putting one thing in front or one thing on top of this so that we have to peel away so many parts of that.
Judy Tsuei (38:48.27)
And like doing that parts work is so important for ourselves so that we can understand our partners depth too. And it's like, yeah, maybe there are just playing video games, but what's deeper than that? Maybe they had a rough day at work and maybe they just like need to cool off and like, maybe they have a whole well of emotions and experiences that they're going through too. But we get so like, sad track on just us and what we want and what we need that we forget that we're with a whole other person. I love that you bring epigenetics into it. Cause I think again, like,
you know, all of this stuff is starting to come more mainstream and understandable and like knowing what we carry, whether we're consciously aware of it or not. So I have two more questions for you. One is if you were to say fuck saving face about something, what would you say fuck saving face about? That marriage is supposed to be boring. Like, no, challenge that. Like if you're feeling like you're in a rut, like figure it out, spice it up. Like.
get out of that rut because life is too short to be miserable in just an okay marriage. When you were young, when you decided to do this experiment, right? You guys were married for how long? And then when you were married for six and a half years. So we got married at 25 and then now I am 34. We've been married for almost nine years. And lastly, if people want to follow up with you, how can they find you?
Yes. So my, I also have a podcast. If you guys are interested in diving deeper into relationship conscious relationship stuff, it's called thriving in love. And you can reach me on my website, sannaacond .com. If you are interested in love coaching or marriage coaching and my Instagram is the best place to just shoot me a message. Sanna, a cond S A N A, AKH, a N D. Love it. Thank you. Thank you. This is so fun.
Remember, we will be releasing weekly episodes for the next few weeks because I have an array of remarkable interviews with different individuals across cultural backgrounds and life's work. So I wanted to share that without having too big of a pause in between. And then we will take a break for season four of this podcast, which
Judy Tsuei (41:07.086)
will be a bit different. I am going to focus on the narratives that people have been telling me they want to hear and they want to know more about in regards to the book that I have and the book that I've been working on. And we're gonna just pivot a little bit in season four. In addition, my company is also pivoting to focus more on women entrepreneurs. So Wild Hearted Words is going through a rebrand as well. And because of that,
We will be releasing content specifically focused on branding solutions and the things that we do best, especially for women who are out there wanting to create their dreams come true. I look forward to you tuning in.
Judy Tsuei (41:54.19)
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode. And if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wildheartedwords .com and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
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Keywords: F*ck Saving Face podcast, mental health, emotional health, Asian Americans, marriage, relationships, unconventional, space, epigenetics, inner work, healing, duality
