EP 117: Unlearning Silence to Empower Asian American Voices with Elaine Lin Hering
Image by Cat Coppenrath
Today, we're diving into some real talk with Elaine Lin Hering, the brilliant mind behind the USA Today bestselling book, "Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully."
Transparency and language play a huge role in breaking down barriers and reducing isolation and pain. Elaine touches on the importance of embracing imperfection and ditching the pressure to be flawless.
Get ready to hear about Elaine's journey as a high-achieving Asian woman — and why she's shaking up the status quo to create a better world for everyone. She advocates for more inclusive leadership and work environments.
Elaine and Judy also keep it real about the emotional rollercoaster of sharing personal stories and putting yourself out there. They open up about the struggles of dealing with imposter syndrome and the impact of societal pressures; the importance of healing old wounds and standing up for yourself; and highlighting the ongoing need for support and growth.
Whether you're looking to find your voice, break through silence, or get inspired, this episode is for you.
More about Elaine Lin Hering
Elaine Lin Hering is a facilitator, author, and speaker. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. She has worked on six continents and facilitated executive education at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Berkeley, and UCLA. She is the former Advanced Training Director for the Harvard Mediation Program and a Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School.
She has worked with coal miners at BHP Billiton, micro-finance organizers in East Africa, mental health professionals in China, and senior leadership at the US Department of Commerce. Her clients include American Express, Chevron, Google, Nike, Novartis, PayPal, Pixar, and the Red Cross.
She is the author of the USA Today Bestselling book Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully (Penguin, 2024).
Download a sample of my book:
How to Disappoint Your Parents in 10 Shameless Steps: A Modern Asian American Guide
Takeaways
Silence is a common experience for Asian Americans and voices of color, and it is important to break through it for mental and emotional health.
Closing the gap in leadership requires managers to consider the impact they have on their team members and create a supportive work environment.
Choosing a different way and not settling for the status quo is essential for personal growth and creating change.
Imposter syndrome is a damaging concept that shifts the responsibility onto individuals instead of addressing systemic issues.
Social structures, such as work and school, can perpetuate silence and hinder authentic expression. Sharing personal stories can have an emotional impact, and it's important to acknowledge and process these emotions.
Healing wounds and being a champion for oneself is an ongoing process that requires self-awareness and openness to growth.
Transparency and language play a crucial role in reducing the pain that comes from social isolation and the damaging impacts of silence.
Embracing imperfection and rejecting the pressure to save face allows for greater authenticity and self-acceptance.
Understanding and expressing personal needs is essential for personal growth and building healthy relationships.
Creating safe spaces for open and honest communication is vital for fostering trust and love in relationships.
Challenging harmful habits and creating new norms of communication can lead to more meaningful connections and personal growth.
Asking for help and support is a sign of strength and can lead to greater personal and emotional well-being.
Episode Highlights
00:00Introduction and Background
01:10The Power of Language
03:13Closing the Gap in Leadership
05:04Creating Change for Ourselves
08:26Raising Expectations
09:52Choosing a Different Way
12:00The Danger of Imposter Syndrome
13:23The Impact of Social Structures
15:12The Journey of Writing the Book
19:00Conclusion and Celebration
19:21The Emotional Impact of Sharing Personal Stories
20:12Healing Wounds and Being a Champion
21:27Overcoming the Silence and Isolation
22:18Reducing Pain through Transparency and Language
22:48Creating a New Norm of Openness
23:26The Importance of Feeling and Expressing Emotions
24:32Unlearning Silence and Recognizing Subtle Nuances
25:01Fuck Saving Face: Embracing Imperfection
26:08The Depth of Relationships and Allies
27:05Understanding and Expressing Personal Needs
28:16Lowering Barriers to Communication
29:09Validating Personal Needs and Preferences
30:10Building Trust and Love in Relationships
31:29Challenging Habits and Doing Better
32:48Overcoming Fear of Disagreement
33:38Embracing Uncomfortable Conversations
34:59The Importance of Love and Acceptance
35:23Creating Safe Spaces for Communication
36:17Asking for Help and Support
Transcript:
Judy Tsuei (00:02.606)
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today.
Judy Tsuei (00:01.019)
Welcome to another episode of the Fuck Saving Face podcast. And every time I say the name of the podcast, I'm always like, fuck, like whispering it out, which is funny because it's all about breaking through taboo topics and empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color. So today I have Elaine Lin Hering and she's the author of Unlearning Silence, which.
Elaine Lin Hering (00:10.868)
own it.
Judy Tsuei (00:24.815)
I'm very excited about also because, you know, when I went to your website and saw the background, I saw that you were a Harvard educator and all the accolades that any guai quote unquote good Chinese girl should go for, which is why I'm so curious as to, you know, why you wrote the book on learning silence. And I think that silence is something that if you've
Elaine Lin Hering (00:36.57)
Hahaha
Elaine Lin Hering (00:40.59)
Oh yes.
Judy Tsuei (00:53.459)
fallen into the model minority trope, which so many of us have experienced, then that's something that we have had to deal with. But I'm going to turn it over to you first to share a bit about your story and how you got to where you are now.
Elaine Lin Hering (01:10.154)
Can we also just acknowledge that the first time I dropped an F-bomb in my newsletter, my father, who is subscribed, texted me. Did you really just use the F-word? He didn't even say it.
Judy Tsuei (01:19.987)
Oh my gosh.
Elaine Lin Hering (01:29.366)
And I like flashback to being 14. I have dishonored my family by using, but I also like italicized it. It was in the, you know, not that I need to apologize for it because it is a vocabulary word with powerful meaning that we each can use, but I remember getting that text and then being like, yeah. I...
Judy Tsuei (01:31.904)
Aww. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (01:39.9)
Mm. Yes!
Judy Tsuei (01:46.275)
Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering (01:52.302)
actively chose to use the word because I was expressing the emotion that we often feel when someone scoops your idea, right? And that's why I said stop, right? I was telling the story and that's what we all think so why don't we actually say it or why don't I as a Asian woman get to say it as your daughter get to say it? And that gets us a bit to silence. I was very quiet.
Judy Tsuei (01:57.543)
Hmm. Mmm, oh yes. Yes!
Judy Tsuei (02:13.011)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (02:22.558)
I was that person that all the aunties at church told their kids to like, can't you be more like Elaine? And all the complexity that comes with that. And certainly the like, academic accolades, I went to University of California Berkeley because it was the practical choice. It was in-state tuition, go Bears! And then this little school on the East Coast called Harvard Law School and then ended up teaching there.
So there's a professional journey of doing quote unquote, all the right things, only essentially to then get some senses screwed over because doing the right things doesn't protect you from whiteness. And then there's a personal journey of like many of us, I would imagine always being told.
by people outside my family, you need to speak up more, you need to be visible, you need to, you know, hard work isn't going to get you promoted, gonna get you the things that you want, and the advice out there around speaking up essentially boils down to just do it. Like, have more confidence, have more courage, you're the problem, if you could just fix yourself, then you would be good. And I found that wholly unsatisfying and at times irresponsible because
Well, no, like how do I honor my family? Not to save face, but because I think there's wisdom in a lot of the ways that we were raised. And also when I spoke up, people said, well, not in that way, right? They said, tell me what you really think. And then when I told them, they're like, no, no. And then there's repercussions. So I wanted a more honest analysis of the challenge of using your voice and the ways that we have.
learned silence, been rewarded for silence, particularly early on in our careers because you don't rock the boat, you're a good team player, all of that just means not pushing back. And also the ways that the people around us continue to silence us. And fundamentally it is wanting each of us to feel seen, known, and heard, right? Like it wasn't you, it's not because you're flawed.
Elaine Lin Hering (04:35.838)
that you weren't heard in that meeting. There are biases, there are people who are doing things unintentionally, maybe intentionally, the systems and structures don't support you. So I want us to just be honest about that rather than internalize ourselves as flawed. And then I want each of us, well-intentioned leaders, allies around us to do better. Because I have never met a leader who didn't aspire or intend to be supportive of their people.
But being in leadership development across industries and geographies have done far too many diagnostic calls with clients, their direct reports who say, yeah, like could never speak my mind to my manager. And their manager's like, but I ask them all the time. So how do we close that gap? Because it's frustrating for everyone and disproportionately damaging for us.
Judy Tsuei (05:26.727)
Hmm. There are so many nuggets that you just shared about. You know, I think I never thought about the person who was being compared to when we were growing up, because I was the person who was like, why can't you be more like that person? And I was like, I don't know, I can't play piano that well. I just like it's just not my thing. So I never thought about the position that you would be in, you know, like what that did to you.
Elaine Lin Hering (05:31.458)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (05:43.95)
You're so hot!
Judy Tsuei (05:53.691)
Did it create expectations? Did it create a divide between you and all the other kids who couldn't be like you? There's that bomb that you dropped. All the way to the, it doesn't protect you from whiteness. Recently in the color of emotional intelligence, learning about how
So many of us have had to use these tools and techniques to just survive, not thrive. And I think when you are of the dominant race, then you can use it as a tool for thriving. And that was something new just to like get us to the starting line. But then also this idea of weathering of the daily emotional tax of having to deal with giving someone else the benefit of the doubt. Like the leaders that you were talking about, they're trying to be inclusive.
Elaine Lin Hering (06:23.81)
Mm-hmm, totally.
Elaine Lin Hering (06:32.782)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Tsuei (06:47.911)
but then on the other end of it, just similar to like circling back to what we were saying when you were little on the other end of it, it's like, well, are you being inclusive or are you trying to point out that I don't know the answer, that like, you know, you're attacking me and just that mental gymnastics that we have to do all the time is so tiring. And even as you were talking just now, I was thinking in my mind, I was like, hmm, I see. I need to make sure that I put in some more blocks of like, fun and something that has to do
Elaine Lin Hering (07:02.606)
Totally.
Judy Tsuei (07:17.845)
about mental and emotional health or nothing about advocating for voices of color, because I can see how much after a while it just like really weighs on you. Just like understanding of how much work there is ahead, how passionate you are to do this work. I mean, you wrote an entire book around it. And...
what do we do to make sure that we understand it is this intergenerational legacy that we're hoping that we're leaving that there's not gonna be, I mean, in our lifetimes, we're probably not gonna see the impact or the effect of the work. And thankfully, I just did a talk with a South Asian woman and a half black, half Latina woman, and she identifies as black and she was saying, the work that we're doing is setting our children up for a different starting point, which was so great to think of.
Elaine Lin Hering (07:40.643)
Mm.
Judy Tsuei (08:05.305)
about.
Elaine Lin Hering (08:06.186)
It is, and I'm gonna push on that because I hear that frame so much more and I buy into it, right? Let's make it better for our children. Yes, and let's make it better for ourselves. And for folks who, and like, I just don't, I don't have patience to wait.
Judy Tsuei (08:08.271)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (08:13.095)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (08:18.276)
Yes, yes, definitely.
Elaine Lin Hering (08:26.898)
and bank on the promise that it will be better for the next generation. I want it to be better for the next generation. I want it to be better for the people five years out of law school, right? Sort of a decade. But I want it better for me, too. And I actually don't think that's out of reach.
Judy Tsuei (08:41.292)
Mm-hmm.
And I love that. Please tell me more.
Elaine Lin Hering (08:46.59)
Okay, so we've got a lot of reads because I don't want us to lower our expectations. I understand that is a way that we modulate so that our nervous systems don't get woven at just like stay on chronic high alert and there's a self-protection in lowering the bar. And it can be better.
for each of us. If we each choose a different way, it is not to say that it is on any single one of us, but the power of collective action means that change actually is possible. And if we think about our predominant experience at work is so impacted and our mental health is so impacted by our direct manager.
or our peers, but particularly our direct managers who will just start there, if every single manager actually started considering what impact they're having on the people that they manage, the world would be different. Our lives would be different. Our mental health, I'd argue, would be better. So how do we help people do that? And that can be true for each of us, right?
I hate the phrase be the change you want to see because it like diminishes it so much. And I don't want us to forget that we have the opportunity to choose. We don't have to perpetuate the silence that we grew up in, that we've internalized that has been habitual. We can actually choose a different way for ourselves to articulate a boundary, to name a preference, to continue to experiment.
Judy Tsuei (09:54.611)
Hehehehe
Elaine Lin Hering (10:21.694)
choose a different way. So yes, and I hear that. I want more from us now.
Judy Tsuei (10:25.513)
Mm. Yes. And yes.
Well, and I think that the reason that it's so wearing on us, because I think yes, we spent a lot of time like at work or whatever, but it's because we actually identified those structures work and school as social structures that feel like family. And so when it, there's some sort of conflict when there's some sort of, you know, like just that sense of belonging that we all need and because we're there in those social structures I think that is helpful to understand is like our brain actually interprets it that way.
That's how aggressive it can feel and attacking it can feel when something in either of those situations. And I think about my daughter telling me about her friends stuff and she goes to a child therapist and the child therapist was telling me recently like...
She's seen so much growth within my daughter of being like voluntarily willing to talk about, you know, different feelings. And I sometimes like my adult brain is like, oh, it's just like little kids being like little kids. But if I remember, well, actually that's a big deal, you know, and like to think about how big of a deal it was through junior high, like all those friendships being on the phone for like so long, cause that was like your lifeline. And you know, what you were saying too, like just.
before when you said that people would say to you, just do it. It's similar to like when I was suffering from my eating disorder and people would say, well, just eat less. And I was like, nope, doesn't work like that.
Elaine Lin Hering (12:00.298)
Whoa, listen, it doesn't. And it's really damaging to conflate and distill down the message to go fix yourself. It's just, I mean, it's inaccurate. It's missing nuance. We can use whatever language we want, but we can't solve the issues if we're looking at it in an incorrect way, which.
Judy Tsuei (12:05.488)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Tsuei (12:14.829)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (12:27.03)
I'd argue is almost by design, right? If we continue to tell women, women of color, that they're suffering from imposter syndrome, then the systems never have to change because it's the women who have to change. So this, and for those who haven't read the Harvard Business Review article of stop telling women they have imposter syndrome, go read it, it's brilliant. We've got to ask and answer the right question in order to get to useful solutions.
Judy Tsuei (12:53.351)
Hmm, that reminds me of, you know, in that book, it was saying, like, we start to view ourselves through the lens through which we understand other people are seeing us. And so you stop being authentic, and you stop being yourself, because you have to navigate both planes, the one that's outward viewing, and then the one that's viewing that view back at you, and how exhausting that is. And like what you're saying, like, yes, then it distracts from, it's not an us problem.
It's been built and rooted into that. You know, the friend who I was just on this live stream with yesterday, she was saying, because all of her work is in diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, and she was saying, you do realize that the work structures that we are a part of are rooted in like chattel slavery. Like, so much of that mentality has just been carried over. And you know, no wonder it's like a patriarchal, hierarchical kind of like thing. And I was just like, ugh. Like, once you like know that.
Elaine Lin Hering (13:27.185)
Thank you.
Elaine Lin Hering (13:53.044)
Easy.
Judy Tsuei (13:53.723)
then it's time for us to, I think that yes, when there's so much momentum behind something, it's hard to like get it to slow down or stop. And if it's working in any sort of way, just even a little bit, then it makes it even more difficult because you're like, okay, well, this aspect of it is okay. And it's not like dire in this circumstance. You know, we were equating it to like health and wellness. Like, yeah, you know, you should eat healthier. But then if you haven't gotten a test result that's saying like immediately now,
Elaine Lin Hering (14:16.858)
Thank you.
Judy Tsuei (14:23.717)
And then you're like, that wine is real good.
Elaine Lin Hering (14:28.187)
It's also familiar, right? It's familiar. It may not be perfect. It may be really damaging, but at least I know it and I don't have to deal with the fear of uncertainty. The unknown is often, yeah, right, scarier than the shit that we know now.
Judy Tsuei (14:43.829)
So scary.
Judy Tsuei (14:49.016)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (14:50.062)
Well, at least I've developed coping mechanisms, I think, or so I tell myself, right? I've developed coping mechanisms for dealing with this version. There's no guarantee that something else will be better. And I have to deal with the fear of the unknown. No, thank you. Let me settle for what I know, even if I know it's not actually working.
Judy Tsuei (15:12.407)
So in this process, in this journey of writing this book, I'm so curious as to like, you know, I think you kind of alluded to what sparked it, but in the journey of writing it, were there like big ahas that you weren't expecting? Were there, you know, things that you're like, oh, I want everybody to know about this?
Elaine Lin Hering (15:30.966)
Oh, there's so much I wish people knew. I mean, honestly, everyone says that writing a book turns you inside out. I don't know what your journey was like. It preys upon every insecurity that you might have, every perception that people superimpose on you. And having only done this once, I have a data set of one. So I'll own that.
Judy Tsuei (15:56.752)
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering (15:58.226)
But writing a book on unlearning silence while unlearning your own silence feels next level.
Judy Tsuei (16:04.269)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (16:04.67)
Right, my story very much is I helped build someone else's business. I taught someone else's content. I always said I was never going to write a book unless I had something to add. I came across this idea that I was like, I think I'm onto something, uh, put together proposal, my agent went out with it. I started getting calendar invites. And I was like, what are these calendar invites? And they're like, oh, they're meetings with publishers who are interested. And I met with 16 different publishers. And I was like, I, I don't understand.
I was very much like, I just need one publisher to maybe be interested. And then the book sold at auction to Penguin Random House and Global Rights. And then immediately they started selling translations. And then of course the good Asian girl in me is like, shit, I have to deliver on this. So I've done a lot of work in therapy, which has been really good.
Judy Tsuei (16:59.361)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (17:02.946)
So that's one aspect of it, just believing, do I actually have something to say and something to offer? And I say this as someone who has, you know, I taught at Harvard Law School, I was the first Asian or Asian-American senior faculty member on that teaching team.
And silence is real and it is baked into the systems and teams we're part of. So when I started writing this book, I was the first non-white partner at a global leadership development firm. And because I have a confidentiality agreement in our separation agreement, I will just note the fact that I am no longer a partner at that firm. And I'm waiting for Shonda Rhimes or someone else to make it into a Netflix special, so I'm just going to put it out in the world, because you cannot make this stuff up.
Judy Tsuei (17:21.572)
Hmm
Judy Tsuei (17:45.523)
Ugh.
Elaine Lin Hering (17:47.25)
And so when we talk about the weight of being a woman of color, of whether we have a voice, of whether the systems and the people around us want to have a voice, the silencing is real and it is hard. What surprised me in this process is to actually discover that I do have a voice. And it is a really beautiful.
Judy Tsuei (18:09.939)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (18:13.738)
thing and everyone says you write the book that you need, that you needed when you were younger and I was like no I still need it now. This book is still literally coaching me through it. I was like I cannot be a hypocrite.
Judy Tsuei (18:14.599)
Hmm... Ah!
Elaine Lin Hering (18:27.958)
So I'm going to experiment, right, with using my voice, experiment with putting a book out in the world that slightly terrifies me, not because I don't think the book is good, but because people are mean and the systems are not in our favor.
Judy Tsuei (18:41.073)
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering (18:45.01)
And yet it is collective action of each of us seeing the world more clearly, having language for the things that we swim in and navigate, silence, and choosing a different way that makes any difference possible. So trying to do my part.
Judy Tsuei (18:58.755)
Mmm.
Congratulations, that's so remarkable. I mean, it's remarkable from the just publishing your book and getting the traditional publishing route and having all of those publishers interested. That is worth celebrating. Your personal journey is worth celebrating. I was just on a call this morning with this entire kind of like book panel to help people understand that publishing a book is like a business. There's so many elements to it, especially if you're using it to further your thought leadership
Elaine Lin Hering (19:07.787)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (19:21.518)
Mm.
Judy Tsuei (19:30.773)
like that. But at the very end of the conversation, we were talking about that moment that you were saying like, oh, like, now it's out there or like, now I gotta I hit publish and okay, like that's, that's that that's gonna go out there. And then the level of
Elaine Lin Hering (19:45.614)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (19:48.731)
Yes, you can't take it back, the level of emotions that follow that last moment. It's like, not like once you publish, you're done. There's a whole other emotional component of it that happens afterwards. And so I think what you're alluding to, I think if we are open to it and we're aware of it, then yes, we're being invited all of the time to heal our wounds, to...
be the champion that we needed when we were growing up. So like this podcast started because, you know, I am in a relationship with someone who's a school administrator and I was sharing some of the elements of my upbringing and he was like, oh man, I wish that you could talk to the students that I talk to because they go through the things that you went through. And I'm like, no, no. Tiger parenting is done when I grew up, right? And he goes, what are you talking about? It is like alive and well.
Elaine Lin Hering (20:38.25)
We bring the king back to the kingdom.
Judy Tsuei (20:41.927)
So when I thought about that and I thought about how desperate I felt when I was growing up just for the understanding that it could get better than this, you know, I think that that's the other part about mental and emotional health and what you're saying, giving words to things that we are swimming in is when we are young, that's all we know. And if we let that...
be the be all and end all of our entire life experience. It's so tiny. And to be able to overcome that and do the work that you're doing, I do hope Shana Rhimes makes that into a Netflix series. Cause then I wanna piggyback my Netflix series on your Netflix series. And I can see the Asian Netflix rising. Exactly.
Elaine Lin Hering (21:27.328)
done. We're almost started here on Foxy. It's such a beautiful thing that you have this podcast and that we are having this conversation because silence exacerbates existing suffering. Right? You are.
Judy Tsuei (21:44.398)
Mmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (21:47.158)
dealing with all the internalized messages, messages coming at you from the world, often from your family, the people closest to you.
Elaine Lin Hering (21:58.558)
And you may think it's all on you and you're the problem because that's the frame that's coming at you. And then the inability to talk about it with anyone else creates the social isolation. And we know that loneliness has damaging health impacts and the Surgeon General has done a bunch of research around that.
Right, we cannot and may not be able to solve for the initial pain, but we can solve for the double pain that comes from the social isolation. So the more that we are transparent, the more that we are talking about the struggle, the challenge, the more that we have language for it. At least we reduce the pain that comes from social isolation. We don't make the pain worse by staying silent and each of us having to suffer in silence.
Elaine Lin Hering (22:48.356)
we make it the norm, but voice also breeds voice. That means more of us are like fuck saving face. We're not okay with that because of the damaging impacts that it has and we want a different way.
Judy Tsuei (22:52.743)
Hmm.
Judy Tsuei (22:58.225)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (23:06.311)
Hmm. I think that double wounding is so key and the that the voice gives voice and the silence breeds more silence. It's funny because my daughter sometimes has like very big responses to things and I look at her and I just thought about it this morning and I was like...
Elaine Lin Hering (23:22.122)
Mm. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (23:26.599)
there's a benefit to the fact that she does that. Like it's uncomfortable and different for me because I wasn't allowed. I had to stay silent. I had to know exactly what I was feeling and what everybody else was feeling and I couldn't feel what I was feeling because they trumped my feelings. And so sometimes it's like, you know, like that default wiring of like, oh, like it's okay. Like that's enough. But then the...
Like when I think about it, I was like, I wonder how this is gonna serve her when she grows up. Like I wonder what that depth of feeling, that allowing to have it come in, come out, like, okay, like, you know, and then she also does a really good job of taking responsibility when I point out like, hey, the way that you, that.
transaction just happened, it impacted me too. And she's like, oh, so then, you know, like we talk about that and we think about that. So I love this idea. I think that that's like what I'm hoping future episodes get into is what you're talking about, that double layer, that like, that, that.
subtle nuance that we all know because we've lived it, but we haven't been able to pinpoint what that is and like say, oh, I see. And so your unlearning silence, your, you know, personal journey, what would you say? Like, I asked this at the end of every episode, I'm going to just ask it now because I feel like it's like a good point. But if you had to say, fuck saving face about something, what would you say fuck saving face about?
Elaine Lin Hering (25:01.158)
Oh, fuck saving face about pretending you're perfect. None of us are. So why do we even try to pretend? Like I don't understand. I don't understand for what purpose if we are human, we are flawed, we are broken, we are messy, why are we spending energy trying to pretend that we're not other than the deep rooted fear that we wouldn't be accepted if we were.
Judy Tsuei (25:03.943)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (25:29.522)
imperfect, but we are all imperfect. So...
There's some Latin phrase of therefore. It doesn't make sense. Imagine that. It was an expensive lesson in education. It's so fucked up.
Judy Tsuei (25:39.774)
Oh
Judy Tsuei (25:47.279)
You know, one of the things, so yesterday we were talking about at the end of our live stream, we were talking about allies and we were talking about, there are, there is, there are mean people in the world and there is also goodness in the world. And I think that we actually don't need,
what we've been told that like we need at the mass scale. Like if you have the depth as opposed to the variety or expanse of it, it was funny because I was thinking about this episode that I was listening to about social media, about social media lurkers and that there are different types of people that you need in your ecosystem to build a business and you want the advocates, but the advocates won't always be your.
Elaine Lin Hering (26:22.346)
Mm.
Judy Tsuei (26:30.011)
revenue generators. And then you have the silent observers who will follow everything that you do. And they're the ones who are gonna invest like the big ticket items, but they don't, they're not gonna be there for the glitz and the glory. They're not gonna be shouting it from the rooftops. They're working with you. And then there's gonna be those detractors and like people who are, you know, and whatnot. And so thinking about all of that, like together, when it comes to like fuck perfectionism,
What is it that we actually do need then?
Elaine Lin Hering (27:05.894)
I think we need a lot. And to know that having needs does not make you needy. So let's be clear about that.
Judy Tsuei (27:07.367)
Hahaha
Elaine Lin Hering (27:16.938)
We need clarity about what we want in life, not what other people want for us in life or what our lives should look like, but what we want and what we need and to give ourselves permission to even ask those questions. So in my coaching, it's often, if you don't know what your voice is, you don't know what you need, start just internally. As you're listening to a podcast, ask yourself the question, what do I think? What do I think? Not, what does Judy want me to think? Or what does my mom want me to think?
my manager want me to think, but what do I think? And follow that up with what do I need to pay back attention to what is actually in us. It's still in our bodies through that weathering, through that denial, but to remember that there is actually someone in there because motherhood or being a woman or having any subordinated identity in this world means that people aren't asking that.
Judy Tsuei (27:49.32)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (28:16.162)
for us. So let's ask it of ourselves and then we can decide whether and when we want to advocate for it to be met but to remind ourselves what we inevitably learn when we burn out because our needs haven't been met. That there is someone in there with unique thoughts, feelings, needs, preferences and those actually do matter. If we take it just from a professional negotiation
Judy Tsuei (28:16.167)
Hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (28:43.498)
Theory perspective, traditional negotiation theory says all parties to the negotiation have a set of interests. If I am a party to the negotiation, I therefore, if so facto, have a set of needs, goals, hopes, and concerns. Why do I so often diminish or silence my own needs, goals, hopes, and concerns? Oh, because to be a good Asian daughter means to not take up space.
Judy Tsuei (29:09.208)
Mmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (29:10.358)
To be a good friend means to be easy, which means to not have any needs, thoughts, preferences of my own. But if we actually think we are a party to the negotiation, which we are because we are human, then of course we have needs, and those needs are valid, just the way that we would validate anybody else's needs. Why is there a double standard for myself versus how I would treat a friend or even an enemy?
Judy Tsuei (29:41.423)
I love that exercise of whatever you're doing inwardly, you can ask yourself, what do I think? What do I need? I was not taught how to be a critical thinker growing up. And so, yeah, so I think even asking myself, and I've given this example before of my partner who's so wonderful, and he's like, you can just tell me. I'm like, mm-hmm, nope. No, it's not gonna, no. I was like,
Elaine Lin Hering (29:47.503)
Thank you.
Elaine Lin Hering (30:05.925)
Hahahaha
Judy Tsuei (30:10.867)
I can work up to telling you, but first I need to figure out what it is, then build up the courage to figure out the verbiage that I need to use to get to the point where I'm going to tell you. And so now he's developed this ability. He reads me very well and he will look at me. He goes, are you thinking about something? I'm like, I don't know. And he's like, do you need some time to like figure that out? I'll circle back with you on that.
Elaine Lin Hering (30:12.842)
Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering (30:32.618)
Hahaha
Judy Tsuei (30:40.631)
I think you're thinking about something and I'm going to circle back." And I was like, huh, am I?
Elaine Lin Hering (30:46.454)
And what I love about that is he is meeting you not in the tell me what you need, but in the tell me what you're thinking, which is a precursor to getting to what you need.
Judy Tsuei (30:50.141)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Tsuei (30:56.628)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (30:58.082)
But I love that flexing and that's something we can do for each other as allies. Rather than you have to communicate to me, this is one way we silence each other, is to expect that you have to communicate to me in the way that I can best receive it, versus communicate to me in the way that you can best communicate it. Which may or may not be verbally, could be written, could be text me, so then I can wordsmith on my phone, because I still am working through my perfectionist tendencies.
Judy Tsuei (31:02.207)
Yes, yes!
Judy Tsuei (31:19.775)
Mmm... Mm-hmm...
Judy Tsuei (31:28.244)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (31:29.462)
But can we understand what lowers the barrier to communicating rather than assuming and in corporate spaces it is you need to talk in real time three succinct bullet points, right? Not a little bit of emotion to show that you care and you're not robotic, but to not too much so that you lose credibility. That's such a narrow expectation of what voice and input could look like.
What about the people who have the brilliant idea 20 minutes after the meeting because they're a post processor or like sleep on it? And I'm going to slack you because global time zones means that I can't think when you've scheduled the meeting at 4 a.m. my time. Right. There's just a very practical aspect. How do we lower the barriers to communication to not incline people towards silence and not that we mean to do it, but those are the habits.
Judy Tsuei (31:59.164)
Yes.
Judy Tsuei (32:05.34)
Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering (32:24.146)
that have unintended impacts that we can challenge, interrogate, disrupt, and do better. I will say my version of that with my husband was I was so worried that if I said something that was a different perspective, he would stop loving me because that's how I grew up, right? It was disrespectful to disagree.
Judy Tsuei (32:32.415)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (32:42.959)
Yep.
Elaine Lin Hering (32:48.978)
And so we started doing a three-step dance. I don't even remember what the dance was, but it was like part of a bachelorette game that my bridal party played. And I think it was step one, what he would say, I love you. And step two was, tell me what you're thinking. And step three was, I still love you. And we no longer do that. But it was that needing to.
Judy Tsuei (33:07.621)
Hmm
Elaine Lin Hering (33:13.718)
work my way there to quell the fear that I had from the silence I had learned in the past. But there's training and repetition and experimentation that does mean we no longer do that. We don't have time for that now. I mean, I still love each other, but as we're like juggling the six-year-old and pick up
Judy Tsuei (33:29.617)
Hahaha!
Judy Tsuei (33:34.404)
Yeah!
Judy Tsuei (33:38.543)
Yeah, but that's so wonderful that you did that because I think that is that end point of and I still love you. That is so huge. And it takes so much work to get to that point, especially if you grew up in an authoritarian household that was very conditional in so many ways. Like what you're saying, that's what my partner does. He bookends like saying like, and I'm not mad. And there's like, you know, like not and I
Elaine Lin Hering (33:47.607)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (34:04.987)
because anger was such a huge part of my upbringing. And so there was so much fear around it. And being able to, we got into this disagreement recently and it was, and we usually don't argue at all. So it's kind of like unexpected when it happens. But when we talked and he'd probably say like, it wasn't a disagreement. It was just like a, you know, like miscommunication. And to me, I'm like, you know, red alert, like, oh my God. But he was saying like,
Elaine Lin Hering (34:30.862)
I'm going to go in.
Judy Tsuei (34:35.223)
Yeah, like the, I knew even though in my upbringing in my life, I had been trained to be like, red alert, this is danger. What actually I was able to understand is that we're gonna be fine, it's gonna be fine. I don't have to worry about it, we're gonna be fine. And so this is really uncomfortable right now and we're gonna be fine. And it's, so that was like a huge learning.
Elaine Lin Hering (34:44.886)
Thanks for watching.
Elaine Lin Hering (34:59.159)
Yes.
Elaine Lin Hering (35:03.202)
Well, and right, we can do that for each other in a friendship, in a work relationship, to just contextualize it. So our brains can stop doing the fear, right? It's like, okay, I only need to worry about short term discomfort. The stakes are not as high as the relationship as a whole.
Judy Tsuei (35:08.562)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Judy Tsuei (35:17.121)
Mm-hmm.
Judy Tsuei (35:22.123)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (35:23.222)
I mean, you do that in terms, you'd ideally do that just in terms of feedback too, right? Like, here's the coaching on this project, what could be different about that PowerPoint? And let me be clear that the content was great and it landed with the stakeholders, right? We're offering that outside container so you, the recipient knows how to receive the message. That is something we can all do for each other.
Judy Tsuei (35:31.576)
Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (35:35.479)
Yes, yes.
Judy Tsuei (35:46.041)
Mm.
I'm gonna say one more thing and then I'm gonna ask how people can find out about you. But when you said that you can help someone else figure out how they need to communicate, I have a friend who is the go-to for everything. Like she does all the things. Even my daughter is like, she's the most prepared. I'm like, I know. And so, but I can sense too that she needs help, but it's not in her vocabulary to necessarily ask. And so for her birthday, I printed out a little like mad libs kind of thing and put it in a frame is...
Elaine Lin Hering (36:02.3)
Thank you.
Judy Tsuei (36:17.423)
would you please open an item, because I need open an item, thank you so much, or some variation of that. And a tiny little frame, she puts it by the desk, and I was like, this is how you can ask for different things. And it was just, even if it's just a reminder, there are people who wanna help, there are people who wanna show up. I would love to know how people can follow up with you, how they can buy the book, all of that good stuff.
Elaine Lin Hering (36:27.491)
Mm-hmm.
Elaine Lin Hering (36:44.522)
Yeah, I am Elaine Lin Hering on Instagram and LinkedIn, most active on LinkedIn. And the book is Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, Live More Fully, available wherever books are sold. Thank you.
Judy Tsuei (37:01.228)
So exciting. Thank you.
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Keywords: F*ck Saving Face podcast, Asian Americans, voices of color, mental health, emotional health, leadership, workplace environment, imposter syndrome, social structures, personal growth, authenticity, transparency, language, communication barriers, healing, support, vulnerability, safe spaces, allyship, self-expression, community, empowerment, podcast, conversation, diversity, inclusion, Asian identity, personal stories, overcoming silence, challenging norms, emotional well-being, asking for help, breaking barriers
