EPISODE 14: MENTAL HEALTH WITH SHARON KWON
Sharon Kwon is a psychotherapist for BIPOC and immigrant populations struggling with racial trauma and identity at Yellow Chair Collective.
She is also a psychiatric social worker at a Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health contracted non-profit agency serving foster families and youth.
You can contact her at www.sharonkwon.com and on Instagram at @talkwithsharon.
SHOW NOTES
In this episode, we talk about mental and emotional health, specific to Asian Americans. You’ll discover the number one emotions Asian Americans grapple with! You’ll also discover a surprising tattoo she has at the end of the interview, so… listen to the end.
We also cover:
Parentified child phenomenon
Enmeshment in family dynamics
Huffington Post article, “This Is What No One Tells You About Being Asian In America In 2021”
Huffington Post article, “I Hated Myself For Not Being White For Most Of My Life. Here’s How I Stopped.”
Fawning response
Yellow Chair Collective to process the Asian American experience (you can participate remotely)
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Recently a friend of mine sent me a Huffington post article called this is what now and tells you about being Asian in America in 2021. It's by Sharon Kwon. Who's a psychotherapist. And she specializes in working with the Asian American bi-product and immigrant populations who are struggling with racial trauma and identity.
So once I read the article and I saw different things within it, like the fact that we are used to minimizing our own pain, because we don't want to rock the boat, or if you've ever been asked that question of where are you really from? I knew I wanted to talk to her. She's the first therapist. That I brought onto the show and I'm really excited because I think that as an Asian American, you deal with very unique issues and because seeking out help is not something that's very common.
It can be a really difficult conversation to have to even know where to start. So I asked her a bit about her story. How she became a therapist, how she's passionate about this work. And I think if you are someone who was a parental child in that you were expected to be an adult earlier than you were, you know, mentally prepared or emotionally prepared to be, or you've experienced and measurement.
So that collective feeling, I asked her, you know, what's the. Predominant thing that she sees with Asian Americans who come to work with her. And she says that we all have this deep, deep sense of guilt. So if any of this sounds familiar to you, then I hope that you will get a lot out of the interview today.
And I look forward to hearing what you think.
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Like may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today. Hello. And welcome back to the Fck Saving Face podcast, where we are breaking through taboo topics and talking about mental and emotional health, which is why I'm so excited to have Sharon Kwon.
Today here she's a therapist and a social worker. And so she's the first therapist that I brought onto the show and being a mental health advocate. I've definitely partake in, in my own years and years of therapy worked in different. Iterations for different reasons from anxiety and depression, to my eating disorder, to postpartum depression.
So I think it's so valuable and to have someone who culturally identifies as Asian, I think is so unique too, because that's that, wasn't my experience. When I was seeing therapists, they were all white women for the most part. Um, So I'm going to turn it over to Sharon, because I want her to explain her story a bit and how she culturally identifies as well as the fact that she's written two Huffington Post articles that have been very well received.
So I'll ask her a bit about that, but I'm just going to turn it over really quickly to you for you to introduce yourself. Hi, thank you so much for having me. So my name is Sharon and I am a therapist and social worker, and I work mostly with people of color, specifically Asian Americans, Latin X, Americans, and a lot of immigrant populations.
And you know, most of my clients struggle with things like assimilation, family conflict, differentiating from family, and just really those that are struggling with setting those boundaries and living their authentic lives. So that's kind of my forte and who I like to work with the most. That's awesome.
And where are you located? I'm based in Los Angeles. Awesome. And can you tell me how you culturally identify. I'm Korean American first-generation. I immigrated to the States when I was three years old. And for the most part, I kind of just stuck to life in America. I didn't go back until I was in my twenties.
So there was a lot of, you know, for simulation and things like that, that I had to go through and eventually unpack. But right now I feel very. You know, in the mix of both cultures. And I go back to Korea at least once a year and all of my family's there. So I have a pretty close tie with. My culture.
That's incredible. And how, because, you know, I think that growing up mental and emotional health, especially going to see a therapist and talking to someone about it was not at the forefront of anybody's understanding. When I was in my twenties, I went to go live in Shanghai, China, and one of my friends started a blog and she married the co-founder of the site.
And so she had offered, you know, do you want me to tell him about your blog and have it featured on the site? So it was, and all of a sudden I started getting like, Thousands of people reading it a day who were all Asian American. And a lot of times their feedback to me was I wished that I could go seek therapy.
I wish that I could talk about these feelings that I have. I don't have anybody to talk about it with. So you're the closest thing that I've seen anybody expressed. So I'm curious about how you became passionate about mental health and the audience that you work with. Yeah. I mean, I can definitely relate to that.
Growing up the idea of therapy. I mean, I never even thought about it. I feel like I it's floated in my mind. I think people have told me, Oh, you should try talking to a therapist about this. And I was always just like, therapist cannot help me not problems that they can solve. Like a white person would never understand what I'm going through.
And also the stigma, there's so much stigma around it. And I think, especially for my family, we're very closed off and immeshed meshed. And so the idea of talking about our issues to somebody else outside of us just felt like it would be a betrayal and the guilt of all of that, just that was so overwhelming that I couldn't even fathom.
But eventually I did hit like my rock bottom, especially dealing with my family. And that was when I decided that I really needed some help. And I needed to find a Korean American therapist who understood what it was like living by culturally, you know, having the Korean aspect, but also living in America.
And, you know, especially when your parents aren't from America and they're not like a acculturating or adjusting as the same speed or. And the same amount as you, it, it creates a clash of ideologies. And so that's when I decided that I should really seek some outside help. And then how did you become a therapist?
And what was that like for your family too? Yeah, I mean, so my first session, I was just I've, I've always liked helping people and. Um, I feel like I'm one of those people that people just like to tell me things, you know, strangers often tells me darkest deepest secret. I'm not, it's just like why, but, so I, I figure that I must be approachable in some way, or I think people are comfortable opening up with me and I've always wanted to be like maybe a school counselor.
I always thought that I was good at, you know, kind of. Guiding people helping them in that aspect. And so when I had my first session with my therapist, I was just like, wow, this is pretty cool. This is, this is, you know, it's pretty casual. We're just talking about life. Like, I think that this is something that I can do as well.
And so right off the bat, that's kind of when I knew like, Oh, I think that this is what I can do or what I want to be doing with my life. And because at the time I was kind of floating in between living in America, also going back to Korea often, and I didn't really have that much stability and that much direction.
I was managing social media at the time and working remotely. And so that allowed me to travel and do a lot of different things and explore. But in terms of like future, like. Passion purpose. I didn't really have one. And so I think the timing of all of that was really helpful in helping me figure that out.
But yeah, just, just that first session and me talking about the schools that I wanted to go to my therapist kind of, she called me out right away because the school that I had chosen was all the way in Amsterdam. And she was just like, why do you want to go to Amsterdam? And at the time it was just like, Oh no.
I mean, the school is interesting. Um, I love adventure. She's like, well, like what's there for you? Like, I mean, you know, new adventure, I don't know. And she was just like, well, it sounds like you're running away and. Yeah, it was spot on. And I feel like everyone else close in my life knew that as well, but wasn't something that they could really call out or like judge me on.
And it's not like she judged me on it, but it was very objective. Just like you're running away. Let's figure out why. And so we began to unpack that and I told her I would want to work with Asian Americans, um, in, you know, LA there's plenty of Asian-Americans who were struggling with a culture rating and adjusting.
And so that kind of, and I'm from here and it just always felt like, you know, home and somewhere that I want to end up, but because my parents are here. It was something that I really avoided. They're very Christian. My dad is a pastor. And so I just spent my life running away from all of that. And the idea of even being in the same city, the guilt of not going to church when I could, that was pretty overwhelming.
And so that was something that I definitely wanted to avoid. And yeah, she was just like, you know, well, if you go to school in Amsterdam and you want to end up working here, like the credits, aren't going to be easily transferred. Like it's not going to be direct. Like you're kind of making these, this a lot harder for yourself.
And that's when I realized like, yeah, that's what I've been doing. My entire life, making things. So much harder than they had to be. Like, instead of just going the straight route, I would just be going like zigzag, like all over the place. And, you know, just to keep avoiding these failings that I've had for most of my life.
So yeah, that was a breaking point for me. And just period of, wow. I need to just do what is best for me without thinking about, you know, my family and all of these obligations. Do they have a response when you became a therapist? So my mom, she actually encouraged for me to do this. She studied at Christian and Christian counseling, um, uh, on, uh, on her spare time.
And so she kind of felt called to that as well. And so she was very supportive of that. My dad. I mean, he was just like, what's wrong? Like, why do you think there's something wrong with you? You're fine. Ah, I mean, they're, they're, I think they're happy for me that I found something that I feel so passionate about and, you know, it's a helping profession and I tell them that, you know, I think that I'm doing God's work.
And so, you know, I feel like this is kind of my way of continuing that, continuing to live those values that they instilled upon me, but in my own life, I love that when, because of the work that you do in a specific populations that you work with, what do you find are common challenges or issues specific to Asian Americans, especially when they want to come into therapy.
The number one thing is guilt. Asians are so guilty. They have so much guilt over so many things that are out of their control and out of their power. And that's truly like the number one thing. I feel like I, um, I'm working with my clients on every day. Just how to manage that guilt. And when to recognize, you know, what, like, is that guilt serving you?
I feel like guilt. It's there for a reason, it's there to kind of be like a moral compass, you know, tell you when you did, did something wrong, I'll tell you when you did something that you shouldn't have done, but then there's guilt of like, but did you actually do something wrong? Hmm. That's a good differentiation.
Right. And so I, I often point that out, like, okay, I see, I see why you're feeling this way, but what did you actually do wrong here? Well, where do you think the guilt comes from? Like, why is it that so many Asians and Asian Americans feel that guilt? I mean, I can totally raise my hand and be like, yes, I know exactly what you're talking about, but where does it come from?
I think it's because we're so collective, you know, we're, so our family values are so strong and I think it's growing up feeling like, I mean, as an immigrant and having parents that, you know, they started from the bottom and. Growing up, just watching how hard they worked. My mom, I mean, she was basically the sole provider.
She worked as a nurse, her entire life, all she ever wanted was for me to go to church. That's the one thing she didn't ask for anything else. And so the fact that I couldn't give her that when she worked so hard, you know, she supported us and supported me through college, like gave me this life. And the fact that I couldn't just give her that one thing, just go to church on Sundays.
It ate me apart. It was just like, why can't I do this for you? I really wish I could, but I just don't feel it in my heart. So I think that that's a lot of just those pressures. Hmm. And how do you reconcile? Because I used to say this a lot that, you know, being Asian and from that collectivist culture, then growing up in the us and, you know, learning individuation and like, or pursue your goals and like whatever makes you happy.
And I felt like those were always at odds with each other and in order to survive and thrive in certain environments academically or socially, you have to figure out how to navigate these. Often what? It seemed like extremes. So what have you experienced, or, you know, in the work that you do with your clients, what has been some helpful tool or just even better understanding that?
I mean, yeah, this comes up so often, you know, differentiating from family. I think that that's. Super hard for a lot of immigrants, specifically Asian Americans. And one thing is setting boundaries, you know, recognizing that you really only responsible for your own happiness, it would be so great. If we can press a magic button and make everyone around us happy.
Like, how awesome would that be, but that's just not the case. And so to spend your whole life, trying to make, you know, your parents happy to make your family happy and sacrifice your own happiness for that. But I mean, honestly, I just think that ends up being a lost cause. And at the end of the day, when all is said and done, you're the one that's going to be unhappy.
Hmm. Oh, and I felt like growing up, I met so many friends who, I mean, I think I was built differently and I was always just rebellious by nature, rebellious quote, unquote, like that's a very mild form of rebellion, I think. But at least I just wanted to do whatever I was going to do. And I don't think I was built to do what someone else told me to do.
And yet a lot of my fellow Asian American friends did exactly do what their parents told them to do. They went to the schools that they wanted, the parents wanted them to go to. They went. And pursue the careers. And, you know, I, till I was in my thirties, living in San Diego, had a friend who didn't tell her parents that, you know, sh she's a full on doctor.
And like, didn't tell her parents that she had a white boyfriend that they were living together. They bought a house together and it always broke my heart to feel like, Oh, like how devastating that was to feel, not only are you not accepted, but you have to basically live. A false life for your parents.
Do you feel like that's a common experience for a lot of Asian Americans and any thoughts on that? Definitely. I mean, I also, I feel like I used to wear many different faces and I'm only just now getting to a point where I can kind of have one identity that I can use that I can present to everybody instead of, you know, Me as the friend, me as a daughter, me as a sister, me as a therapist instead, I'm finally just kind of thinking, Oh, this is just me.
I'm just sharing. And you know, I have tons of tons of clients who live a life, just hiding parts of themselves to their families. I mean, for me, I, I have a bunch of tattoos. I didn't show them to my parents until I was like 27, 28. I would always cover them up because I was terrified that they were going to, uh, I mean cry or, you know, hate me, or like, you know, just, there's a lot of shame and guilt around it.
No, I'm just like my body and the fact that like, I couldn't even just be myself around the two people that gave me life and are supposed to love me no matter what. Really fucked with me and really just made me feel like, Oh, I, I'm not worthy. I'm not lovable. Like, you know, all of these negative core beliefs that come with feeling like you just can't be your authentic self because you know the other, person's not going to accept you or they're not going to like you as much.
Um, I have a question about that too. This idea that your parents are supposed to love you. I feel like that's such a. Well, I know that like innately, you need like that love and attention from your parents in order to survive and thrive. Like we as human beings, when we're born out of the womb, like we just are nonfunctional unless someone else is taking care of us.
So that totally makes sense. And I understand, you know, all the studies that have been done about how important emotional connection is and all of that to thrive, but that idea that your parents are supposed to love you. Is that like an innate inherent idea or is that a very Western idea that we've tried to transpose on Asian cultures?
I, I think that it's an innate idea. I just think that Asian families, it manifests differently. It doesn't look the same as white people. You know, how we show our love. I feel like for a lot of us it's through financial means it's through a very concrete, like, you know, provide a house, provide food, provide resources, provide an education, all of these like very logical things that, you know, Are given.
And that a lot of our parents didn't even have, you know, growing up and, you know, in the countries that they came from. And so I think to them that like providing those things is a way of, you know, showing their love and showing how much they care that this is how much I'm willing to, all the stuff that I'm willing to do for you, so that you can have a better life.
But I think that a lot of that comes from just them giving what they wanted. You know, growing up. And then I prefer us, like for like, for me, my generation, it's more of like, well, that's all great. Like it's all necessary, but you know, there's, Maslow's hierarchy of needs after you have, you know, your basic needs met, then you start meeting the emotional needs, the social needs, all those things that are necessary to self-actualize.
And, you know, be your authentic self and like live the life of purpose. And, uh, because I didn't have the emotional and social aspect, that was the part that was really dragging me down and preventing me from finding my purpose and living my best life. But I think that, you know, a lot of that I hope is changing and I think, you know, with like, I for sure have learned that, you know, these are the things that I want to provide for my children when I have had them, you know, and again, it just kind of goes into providing what you didn't get growing up.
Yeah. Can you tell us about the two Huffington post articles that you wrote about and what inspired you to write them? Sure. So the first one that I wrote was, uh, this is what no one tells you about being Asian in America in 2021. And this was inspired by, um, you know, the rise of anti-Asian violence in the past year.
And just me feeling like, so I don't really have that many Asian friends. And I think that a lot of this comes from just me growing up in the church and feeling like all Asians are judgmental Christians and just not being, just not wanting to be anywhere near them. So that was really big for me as a big source of trauma.
And so I just like pushed that away from me as far as I could. And I really clung to my proximity to whiteness and try to align myself with that so that I can just prove to the world that, you know, I'm not one of them. And so, you know, I ended up not having that many Asian friends growing up. And as all of these things have come to light and as I'm working with Asian clients and helping them process a lot of this racial trauma and identity issues, I started feeling like, man, like, why do I have anyone that I can talk to about my problems?
Or like how I feel about being Asian that's, you know, not my therapist or, you know, not my colleagues. Why don't I have anyone like any friends that I can just shoot the shit about? Like just, you know, talking about what it's like being Asian and it bugs me out and it made me do some, some deep reflection on like my, how I had to perpetuate the model minority myth.
And, and how I play into that. And so that inspired me to really write the first article as a kind of highlight, you know, why, why we feel this way, why we feel like we're constantly minimizing ourselves and our racial trauma. I think I just kind of wanted to get these feelings out. And once I did, it was amazing because so many people reached out and said that they've been feeling this too.
And I felt so validated and I was like, wow, this is what it would have been. Like if I had more Asian friends, I got what I asked for by writing it. So that, that was a really special feeling. And then this most recent one that I just published today is I hated myself for not being white for most of my life.
And here's how I stopped. And this is kind of a, kind of a continuation on, on the first article and just the internalized racism that I really harbored growing up and feeling like. This is what I need to do to survive. This is what I need to do to make it here. I just need to be as white as possible and reject all of the parts of myself that just doesn't fit this white mold.
And so, and how was the Asian that was like making fun of other Asians, like so much self hating and all of this to really just hide this part of myself and really. You know, to the point where I would just, I pray that like nobody would notice, but of course it's like, I am Asian. It's like as much as I try to be something else at the end of the day, like my skin, how I look like all of these things are, you know, it's like we stick out like a sore thumb, like, and so it took a lot of.
You know, I, it really helped when I went back to Korea, but I think it was a game changer for me because I hadn't gone back to Korea since I came, when I was three. And like, we never visited. Um, even though my entire family's over there only my mom, my dad and my brother are in the States. And then everybody else is in Korea and.
So I just kind of felt called to go back. And when I did, like both my parents are from huge families. And so I had tons of aunts and uncles and cousins and my grandmother's degree, me and I just felt so accepted. And so like at home where, you know, everybody looked like me, we share the same culture. We eat the same food.
I don't have to be ashamed of myself. I can just eat kimchi out in public. I don't have to worry about my breath. I don't have to. All of these things that I was so hyper aware and hyper vigilant of growing up in the States, you know, not offending white people or like not, you know, making them feel uncomfortable.
So yeah, I think that that was incredibly helpful and really made me feel at home and made me feel so like accepted and loved. And so when I came back after that, it was like, I was, I got a second chance of immigrating again, except I got to do it on my terms. And instead of just forcing myself to assimilate, I discovered that there's another route.
We don't have to completely assimilate. There are still ways to be, you know, both Korean and American. It doesn't have to, you don't have to just be one or the other. So ever since then, I've been much more just proud of being Korean American. I think in the past, like that question, where are you from? I think that's so much, it's very, I feel like it's super triggering for like all Asians.
Cause you, you know what they're getting at. Yeah. They really want to ask is what are you? And so in the past that might have been triggering and really annoying. But I think now I. Friendly say, you know, I'm Korean American because you know, this is what America is. We're not just a bunch of white people.
We are, I mean, it's supposed to be a melting pot of cultures and, you know, there's so much diversity here. And so, yeah, I try not to, um, filter myself to appeal to the white lens anymore. And I kinda just see myself from my own lens. I love that. I think that internalized racism, you know, a lot of these terms, I didn't realize growing up or like microaggressions, all of those things.
It wasn't until recently that those started coming to the forefront and then realizing like, Oh yeah, that's what my experience has been like. And so I really appreciate that. You've been giving people the words that they need to express a lot of these feelings that they didn't know they had, or like how to.
Pinpoint that, um, I was recently listening to this book, speak Okinawa. And so the way that she described her experience, there were so many moments where I'm like, Oh my God, she's putting into words. The things that I felt that I didn't even know I was feeling. So I think that that's such a validating experience for so many people reading your pieces.
Before we jumped onto this, we had touched base before. And you had mentioned that you wanted to talk about a funding response. Can you explain like what that is? Yeah. Yeah, I actually, um, so I wrote about this a little bit more in my recent case. And so fawning that's one of the trauma responses like flight fight or freeze.
And finding that's when you diffuse conflict by people pleasing, um, you know, you don't want to make other people uncomfortable. So instead you just stay quiet or you laugh along, or, you know, you just appease to what other people with the majority is doing. And I feel like that describes Asians so well.
Oh yeah. Like we've been fighting our entire lives, not just to white people, but to our parents. And so it's, it's a trauma response that I'm very familiar with. And that's something that I talk about a lot, because I want to raise more awareness that this is what we're doing. And I think that the first step in really overcoming something is to just even know that, you know, there's, that there's a problem.
No self-awareness is so key in therapy and in life, you know, if you don't know that you're doing something or you, if you don't know that there's an issue, then how are you ever going to overcome it? So that's amazing that I think that that idea of when you just said that, that laughing response, I'm like, Oh my God, I just like flashed back to a thousand different moments.
And easy recollection of how many times I've laughed out of discomfort or trying to appease the situation and how that just feels like a violation of self or, you know, Putting yourself down. There's so many, I think ripple effects that happen and over the long-term that really wears on you. Like it wears on your psyche.
It's everything. So thank you so much for pointing that out. As we're getting ready to close this interview, I wanted to ask you, if you had one thing that you could say about Fox saving face and breaking through taboos and, you know, really highlighting something that you wish people would know, what would that be?
So I would say, you know, don't give a fuck. I even have that tattooed on the bow on my lip. I'm a lot on so amazing. My friend has a tattoo on the same area on the bottom of his lip. And he said it was he's tatted all up everywhere. And he said that was the most painful tattoo ever gotten. He was like, I feel like a tattoo gun was going into my chin.
So very impressive. You did that. Yeah. I mean, I love getting tattoos, but it felt like being at the dentist, which I hate. And so, yeah, it was very painful, but I live by this motto. Like, don't give a fuck, like why I just don't think that you should have to compromise your sense of self and compromise any part of you to satisfy other people or to make yourself, you know, appeal to others.
Because at the end of the day, those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. That's a really good adage to remember. I think it takes a lot of practice and trust to get to that point, too, of, you know, in any sort of relationship, whether it's an intimate partnership or a friendship or whatnot, just being able to show up as fully yourself and then be fully accepted.
It's such a wonderful feeling to actually experience that kind of unconditional love, because I think in a lot of Asian households, it's a very conditional love that you get. It's you perform and then you get validation and you perform and you get validation. So I think being able to start understanding well that doesn't have to be the dynamic that we all live by and there can be something else, and we're all imperfect as humans.
So we'll all make mistakes, but I think leaning into that a little bit more is just such a wonderful reminder. If people want to follow up with you and they, you know, I would highly recommend anybody who wants to explore mental and emotional health and therapy to seek you out as a resource or seek other therapists who really speak to you.
I think that what you said when you wanted to embark on therapy in the beginning of finding someone who understood your cultural background, that that was important. I didn't even know that that was an option. In the beginning going to seek therapy, I just went to therapy and just, you know, found whoever I could.
And so one of the future interviews that we're launching as well as to be your own medical advocate and to really be able to know, you know, like you have the right to ask for what it is that you need and what it is that you're looking for. So how can people follow up with you and find you. So you can follow up with me at my website, Sharon kwan.com, or you can also check out yellow chair, collective.com.
That is the group practice that I work at. And we serve, you know, a KPI folks, Latin X, like immigrants, um, all sorts of people. And there we have a lot of Asian-American therapists from all different backgrounds, specializing in. You know, everything from teens to pregnancy to, uh, you know, we have a whole spectrum of populations that we serve.
And so we have a few support groups happening right now, um, for those who want to process the Asian American experience. So yeah, there's lots of things that we, we are offering to our community. So I think that that, that would be a great resource to check out that's wonderful and people can participate remotely.
They don't have to be in LA. For the groups, they can be anywhere, but for therapy, you have to be based in California. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I hope that everybody gets a lot out of it and like was nodding their heads and smiling and laughing to themselves and being able to recognize themselves in your story and your sharing.
Thank you so passionate about mental and emotional health, because I know the shame and the stigma and the guilt and just the trauma that so many of us hold. And the reason that I'm really passionate about it is because I believe that hurt people, hurt people. So in order to truly change the world and make it a.
Healthier more enjoyable existence for ourselves and for everyone around us, then therapy seeking, help. Seeking support is one of the ways to get there. If you enjoy this interview, please do share it with someone in your life. And if you would like to support us, you can go to fcksavingface.com or patreon.com/fcksavingface — that's “fck” without the “u” in both spaces.
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