EPISODE 38: HOW TO HAVE A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRISTOPHER VO
MEET CHRISTOPHER VO
Christopher Vo is one of the co-founders of the Asian Mental Health Collective, and currently serves as the Chief of Operations.
A licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based out of Houston, Texas, he is passionate about normalizing and destigmatizing mental health.
You can contact him at atiredtherapist.com
SHOW NOTES
Hear from Vietnamese American Christopher Vo, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT), who's essentially a unicorn — he's an Asian American male in the field of mental and emotional health. He's the Chief of Operations of the Asian Mental Health Collective and listen to the end to see what resources there are available to you for whatever your budget.
Communication, communication, communication is everything! We're all imperfect people striving to be better. And, when it comes to relationships, there's always room for improvement, especially if you weren't raised with healthy models to show you how to communicate with the people you love and show up in real connection and vulnerability. He’s worked with all types of relationships – polyamorous, monogamous, asexual, etc. – so there’s no judgment here!
He offers insights on what to do when it comes to divorce and co-parenting with children, too. Christopher Vo also shares a bit about the Asian American male experience when it comes to talking about your feelings.
John Gottman Institute & how many positive moments you need to counteract a negative interaction within your relationship
How children become imprinted on what relationships are by watching you
Also, this conversation reminded me of one of my favorite sweetest kids’ books, The Missing Piece. Know yourself and then know how to find what – and who – you need.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
What I love about this interview with Christopher Vo, a licensed marriage and family therapist based in Houston, Texas is the fact that during our interview, we talk about how he's pretty much a unicorn. He's an Asian American male working in the mental and emotional health space. That's a pretty rare blend of being Asian and talking about challenging issues like relationships or sexual trauma, or, you know, any of these topics that we may not feel comfortable bringing to the surface.
And the fact that he is a male in this often female dominated field. He's also the chief of operations of the Asian mental health collective. And you'll hear at the end of the interview, a lot of the amazing resources that they're currently offering and planning to offer in the future. So if you're seeking support, No matter what your budget is, definitely look them up.
They're an Asianmhc.org and you'll learn more about what it is that they currently have to offer. Chris currently works in private practice with a broad range of clients and he's guided by the belief that we are all imperfect people, hoping to be better, sometimes failing sometimes successful, but always hopeful.
And he really believes in normalizing mental health and vulnerability as a way to foster meaningful connection. You can learn more about him at his website, a tired therapist.com and you'll find out why he chose that name in this interview. I hope that you walk away with some amazing insights and ways to shift your mindset and really start to nurture and cultivate healthier relationships in your life.
I think we all always have room for improvement and growth and that we can do it in compassionate ways. So without further to enjoy the interview,
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei, and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Like may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.
Welcome back to the fuck saving face podcast, where we are breaking through taboo topics and really removing guilt and shame, especially when it comes to mental and emotional health.
So I'm really, really excited because I have Christopher Vogue here today. He's an LMT based in Houston, Texas. He's the co-founder of the Asian mental health collective and specializes in couples therapy. And what I love about this is one of the reasons that I reached out to him is because I feel like when it comes to relationships and being able to communicate.
Growing up in an Asian household, that is not something that you are taught. We are very much taught how to be spoken at how to be yelled or shouted at. And so I think that, you know, with a lot of my friends today, whether Asian-American or not, and relationships can be really challenging, especially as you're navigating different life phases.
And one of the other things that I was hoping to bring Christopher on to talk about is, you know, this idea of divorce and what happens when you do want to get divorced or, you know, when you have children involved. Cause I think that, especially in Asian communities, there's such a stigma around that. I know that my parents stayed together.
And growing up, I used to ask them all the time, could you please just get a divorce? Like it would just make our lives so much easier. We wouldn't have to be witnessed to all the arguing and the yelling and the fighting. So I'm just going to turn it over to Christopher really quick, just to kind of explain, you know, your background, a little bit of your story and your Asian identity.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me first and foremost for me, I think I always wanted to be a therapist for all the reasons that you described. Right. Just wishing that we had healthier family models, that we had role models, that we had more communication on. Just about all of the things that we don't talk about within our culture.
I am currently in El Monte. I work in private practice when you set up use in Texas. My clients are predominantly couples. I do do work on sexual issues in sexual dysfunction as well, but I've worked everywhere. I used to work in the nonprofit sector, working with low SES clients. And then I worked in juvenile detention for a period of time where I worked with gang violence and sexual trauma.
So I've pretty much run the gamut and seen it all at this point. Wow. And what's your background? I am Vietnamese first generation. I was the first born here. It depends. Some people call it. . So I'm curious because you know, mental health definitely has a stigma around it. It was definitely not something that we talked about growing up as like, even a resource that you could look into.
So how did you, you know, I know that you shared like the reasons why you got into it, but was it through an exploration of your personal journey into mental health? Or how did you kind of overcome that? Or what, if any challenges did you experience in becoming a therapist? Well, I think that was all of these emotionally sensitive.
I always knew that there were better ways to communicate. I always felt that frustration as a kid, that we couldn't really communicate with our family. Right. Growing older. Now I understand more of the reasons why I empathize. My parents were immigrants. They ha they were well off in Vietnam, but after the war, everything was taken from them and they had to start up fresh.
Right. Growing up in one or two bedroom trailers with six to eight people. Uh, there was a period of time where my father worked literally a year and a half without any days off and just were double shifts. So the only time I saw him was when my mom would take me up to his workplace and probably lunch with him.
Right. I didn't understand it. Uh, I just knew that I felt lonely a lot. Bring up. And then as I got older and he had more free time, I think we no longer really knew how to connect with each other. So they're like communications from a lot of intergenerational trauma, you know, just working hard, doing everything they can to support, but even now my parents are still alive.
I spend a lot of time with them, but we still don't talk frustrates me. Right. So I chose the field that I chose to step into to change that for the next generation, because. This is also a universal concept, right? It especially affects us in Asian communities, but growing up, no one really effectively teaches you how to communicate, how to have relationships.
How to do all these different things, you kind of just glean it from your environment as opposed to having these really nuanced, broken down conversations. Yeah. So when it comes to the work that you do with the couples that you work with, or in the specific areas that are your specialty, what do you feel like?
Or what are some of the, either the main or some of the different, common challenges that people come to seek you out for? Communication communication, communication, communication, no matter what the problem is, my thoughts are it stems from communication and a lack of vulnerability because vulnerability is scary, right?
It's the scariest thing you can possibly do, but it's the entire reason why we step into a relationship in the first place, right? Vulnerability. You either have. A roommate or just a sexual partner or just a business partner, right. Vulnerabilities, but ties it all together and makes it a healthy relationship.
And when it comes to like how to communicate, if you weren't modeled that for you growing up, what are some of the tips and tools that you walk your clients through? Like what are some of the things to be cognizant of? So many, it's hard to think of that. Like I'm going through all of my sessions, eight to be in writing, right.
I think a major tenant of is it that your life and your interactions with people are not built on major moments. They're built on hundreds and thousands of minor interactions that can also change what those major moments look like. Right. It's not that one fight that you had. It's not that amazing vacation that you had.
It's every single moment. What are you doing to show that you care, right. Show that you love the show that you're listening to the show that you're respecting. And we get so caught up in our daily lives, that we don't pay attention to those minor moments. Right. Um, I'm a big proponent of the love languages teaching that pretty much any couple that steps into my office.
I don't care what they're in for. I don't care if they're literally about to divorce or if they're co-parenting or if they're just coming in for sexual dysfunction or if they're coming in, you know, just to make sure there are no problems like premarital counseling, we go over the love language just because it's such an important concept.
What are those love languages? Like I've heard of them before, and I love them. You can go take a quiz, but can you just briefly say what they are? Yeah. Go to the website, gets five, love languages.com. The quizzes like 15, 20 minutes. I suggest everyone goes and does that. Right. But the five major love languages.
It is words of affirmation, acts of service, quality time. Gifts and physical touch. Okay. And the way that I explained people is that we're all arranged a different way. Right. And we often communicate from our own love languages. Right. So if you imagine like a dark, are you familiar with like how a dartboard is kind of oriented the basis complexities, but there's a bullseye.
And then there's a bunch of numbers from it ranging from one 20, right? It's more complicated. We don't have to worry about that. If you're speaking from your love language and you're hitting, and that love language is a bullseye for you, that might be a four to someone else. And it takes a lot of fours, one bullseye.
So you really have to be intentional and mindful of what you're doing, which brings me to the next point. That's always crafting your message to the receive. Be communicate the way that we want to be spoken to. The way that we would hear things, right. But that's not how you need to be communicating to everyone around you.
You need to really be mindful of how they interact with the environment around them. Right. But those love languages. It's gained a lot of popularity probably in the last 20 years, 15, 20 years. And it's really also important to not just have a cursory knowledge of that, but to really break those down as well.
Right. Those love languages look completely different, even in the same categories for different people, right? For some people, for example, quality time. What does quality time mean to you? And what does it mean to your partner? You might have the exact same love language. What does that mean? Taking the kids out in the entire family out?
Does it mean a massive family function? Does it mean just peace and quiet? Do you have to have shared new experiences? Right. One couple that I know where they will sit on a sectional couch on opposite ends of each other. One person will be playing video games. If they're personal, be reading a book and that's quality time to them.
Right. But if she goes upstairs to read that book in her bed, because they're not communicating that instantly sets off alarm bells and anxiety. Mm that's so interesting. I think you're pointing out the fact that, you know, and this was something that I've learned in the last, like five to 10 years I would say is like the, one of the important elements of communication is not just the talking and knowing like what to say or how to say it.
But it's also the listening. And I think the listening part is something that we don't maybe advocate as much. It's really easy to, you know, just figure out like, okay, I need to communicate this, but then how do you hear when someone else is communicating with you? And that's something that you're putting out right now, you had alluded to this idea of divorce.
And, you know, I know for me, when I was going through my divorce, when I spoke with my, I have three younger siblings. And when I mentioned to them that this is what I was thinking of doing. It took me a long time to get there because I have a child. And in my mind, you know, I was taught like you stay together no matter what.
Cause that's what I saw my parents do. And I also thought, well, that's a healthy family dynamic, right? To like, keep your parents together. But when I mentioned getting a divorce and kind of alluding to the reasons why each one of my siblings said, please don't do what mom and dad did. Please don't stay together just because you feel like you have to like, you know, like do something different.
So I think that really spoke to the shared trauma that we all experienced growing up, watching that. And then I talked to a child therapist, friend of mine when I was navigating all of this who helped me understand that we need to, as a culture redefine what it means to have a successful relationship because leaving an unhealthy situation is actually a successful relationship.
And so, you know, I think that there is that like guilt and shame. And I mentioned this story before, when I was visiting a friend of mine in the Philippines and. I was like newly trying to figure out how to divorce, like what to do, how I was going to support my daughter. And so I felt very, very vulnerable and, you know, just very like wounded slash like tender.
And so we went to lunch and I was there with my daughter and I met one of my friends, you know, friends. And she looked at me and she's like, what are you doing here? I'm like, well, I came here for a little bit of a break to kind of figure out how to move forward in my divorce. And her instant response was you can't get divorced.
You have a child. And that idea I think is so pervasive in so many ways. And then my friend thankfully stood up for me and said, her getting a divorce is the best thing that she could do for herself and her child. And I didn't have the words or the resolves to be able to say that. I could have easily internalized that as like another moment of judgment or guilt or shame, but thankfully I had someone there to help kind of stand up for me and represent that different point of view.
So I'm curious as to, for you, especially when it comes to Asian Americans, like, what do you feel about the idea of divorce or like, you know, when there are children involved, what's kind of some of the tips and advice that you share. Yeah. When it comes to divorce, I find it amusing. I don't know if that's the right word, help.
Well, you bring that, that an of like you can't divorce because you have a children think of the children as if you haven't already thought of that. Because if that isn't already something weighing, right. That's like going up to an addict and be like, you need to stop doing heroin. Yeah. They've been doing it for 10 years.
They know the game, they know exactly, you know, that, that this is not something new, but like you said, it's, it's necessary. It's healthy. It's the best thing for them. Right. It's good. To be honest, you know, when pre-crisis, to be honest in how you're contributing to systems and dynamics and seeing if you can undo that, but you also have to be honest with yourself, with your happiness, right?
With your long-term happiness and you're modeling so many different things for your children in that moment as well. Right. If you aren't in a happy relationship and they'll pick up on it, they know it. So what are they seeing right there? They're seeing that, oh, you know, my parents stayed in this unhealthy relationship.
Maybe that's just what relationships look like. And they may do the exact repeat the exact same thing. Right. I think divorce is so tied to the concept of honor and saving base. It's a shame to the family. Well, quite frankly, they're not living your life. They can live it for you. They can't do the day-to-day.
They're not going to bed with that partner. So take everything that they say with a grain of salt. I think there's definitely a healthy way to divorce. There's a healthy way to separate and sometimes it doesn't even have to be for. Traumatic reasons. Right? We spend a lot of time trying to wedge yourself in relationships, in our, you know, twenties and even early thirties because of that cultural family pressure to get married.
And this is what a relationship looks like. You know, it has to be this, it has to be that, but we don't spend enough time to learn who we are. And if we don't know ourselves first, how are you going to find that missing puzzle piece when you're playing blind? Right. And sometimes we evolve into two different people that happens.
There's nothing wrong with that necessarily. Right? That's you choose a partner for a lifelong relationship, but even nowadays, people are starting to look at what relationships look like. They look different for different people, right? I've worked with all different types when it comes to your polyamorous, open relationships, you know, asexual, it's, all these different things.
It doesn't necessarily have to look how other people. Want them to look. It has to be what's authentic to yourself. I think that's such a huge point that we're not really taught, especially like, you know, in Asian households where you might have immigrant parents who come from these collectivist cultures, that it's okay to have your own individualistic needs and to redefine like what your core values are.
And what's important to you. My child therapist, friend had sent to me, she's like, To kind of help alleviate that guilt and shame. She had mentioned to me, when you get divorced, your child then gets to experience different realities. Whereas when you're in that shared unhealthy dynamic, they only see that one reality as you spoke to like, that's what relationships are.
But when you separate your child starts to observe different ways that the adults around them are being, and then the future relationships that they get into and they start to see like, oh, there are more ways. Yeah. And one to function and that's actually really healthy. And so I think that that was very helpful for me, you know, during this and that idea of saving face, you know, my mom, she flip-flopped between when I first told her about the divorce being like, yes, you should get divorced.
Absolutely. When I told her about the reasons that I wanted to do it. Then we got back to the states. I was living abroad at the time, got back to the states. I brought my daughter to stay with my parents. And then, you know, my soon to be ex-husband at the time came to pick my daughter up for a play date.
So my mom watched him be disrespectful to the both of us, like not acknowledge our presence, like, you know, all of that kind of stuff. And she said, we'll just stand here and we're going to wave to them. We're going to make everything okay. For Wilder, like, you know, my daughter. And so we did that. She shut the door and then she said, you know, I just really don't understand why you can't stay together.
I mean, like, can't, you just like live in the same house and like, you know, just raise Wilder. My mind just like, was like, what is happening right now? Like you literally just watch with your own eyes, you know? And I feel like there are so many things that happen in that moment of like, It can be difficult to feel like the people that you want to rely upon.
Aren't there to advocate for you, or like, you know, that she thinks that this is okay because this was the template that she set forth. So to break through those barriers can be really challenging. What kind of tips or suggestions would you have to kind of reframe some of those deep seated beliefs that might be there as someone's navigating these relationships?
I think the title of your podcast is a perfect, I mean, that's, that's really how I feel. Fuck what other people think, you know, you are living your life for you, right. And you have to be mindful of how that interacts with other people around you. Sure. But the concept of damaging someone else's honor through your actions, I think is such an old, outdated concept.
Right. And I think we are doing everything that we can, you know, as the second generation, third generation to undo a lot of those, right. By normalizing. And de-stigmatizing all of these issues, whether it be mental health, relationships, sex, all these different taboos, uh, because you know, absence in knowledge and ignorance, doesn't help anyone.
And I wanted to ask you, because this has been kind of a topic that's come up through different interviewees that I've spoken to, or even just the people who reach out to me. But I feel like Asian-American men are this, you know, underrepresented population when it comes to having a voice and speaking out.
And I don't know if this is true, but in my experience, I feel like I've seen a lot of female therapists and not a lot of male therapists. What has been your experience in not being an Asian-American male in this field? Have you gleaned any insights or like noticed anything? I've met a couple other Asian American males.
I'm a unicorn in this field. I will, I will go to conferences and just look around and be like, all right, that's fine. It's cool. Uh, so when we meet each other, it's like, Hey, I'll just bond. Do you live anywhere near me? Like, it would be great to connect. Yeah. There's so many other facets to it because I think therapy in general is already pretty heavily dominated with women.
Right. And that goes into toxic masculinity. We, as men are not taught to be vulnerable, we're allowed to show two different emotions that is happy and angry. Anything else is not worth talking about. You push it through you, bottle it up and then you die unhappy.
What's the classic model for men. And, uh, you know, it's even more so tacked on with pressures when it comes to patient families, right? Because now you tack on that added cultural element to it, and then you add on the stereotypical Asian pressures to be. A doctor, a lawyer, maybe an engineer, if you've got aggressive parents.
And if you've got religious parents, uh, someone of the clergy or what have you, right. That's pretty much all the options I had, uh, 30, 36 up until I was 32. I was still getting pamphlets. I was like, you sure you don't want to be an optometrist or like a nurse? Like, that's it, you know, it's not a doctor. I'm like, just stop, please.
But, yeah, it's, it's difficult to break down a lot of those cultural barriers when it comes to these things. I think also the fact that these stereotypes perpetuate themselves, I think one of the most frustrating things that I see amongst, well, I'll say Asian males, but speaking for this specific demographic.
There's a lot of that self deprecating humor that goes right. And I remember I grew up in Ohio up until was 17, and I believed every stereotype about me and it made me very introverted, very scared, very anxious, because I thought I was small. I thought it was not attractive. I thought nobody like me. You know, the worst Asian stereotypes, I believe don't let your mind wander with those in that I've found out in my mid twenties that I'm none of those things, you know, I like none of them actually fit me that five 10 is in short.
Right. You know, that all of these things didn't actually take place. And I had to redefine myself and retrain myself and find my confidence. And my voice again, right. And people need to realize that perpetuating those stereotypes, even in humor can be damaging because again, a hundreds and thousands of minor interactions, if you're not offset, like I'm all for dark humor, I'm all for humor and making light of things, full attention to choose.
But if you are not offsetting that with a much larger portion of positivity, And uplifting and confidence that's actually what's taking over. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think that I'm only coming to realize now how much that self-deprecating humor I've done to just kind of like fit in and to like make things okay.
For the other people around me when it's deeply detrimental, I think, from, to your psyche. And you're like, yeah, mental and emotional state. And I love the reminder again, it's all those small minor acts. All the time that actually make the biggest difference. Cause it's easy to see like the shiny flashy, big moments, but it's all of these other moments that make the biggest difference.
So thank you for sharing that. So yeah, Gottman actually said when he mentioned it specifically for couples, right. But he said in good times with a relationship you need to offset. Criticism on a ratio of four to six positive or neutral statements for every one negative statement that you put up time of crisis.
That number spikes. Two 20 to 24 to one that is impossible. There's absolutely no way that if somebody shot off 20 compliments to me, I would absolutely shut them. I be like, what are you doing? This is thing. And that's why you have to have this piggy bank of positive interactions. And I think that also has to do with your relationship with yourself, right?
Again, there's nothing wrong with coping, with, you know, dark humor or humor in general. Right. But if you're not offsetting it with that massive ratio, especially in a time of crisis, right. When you're down in the dumps, when you're vulnerable, after divorce, after breakup, after death and family, all these different things after you've failed an exam, or didn't get that promotion or got fired, then that negative self-talk is what's going to overwhelmingly take over.
Even when you think it's not. Yeah, Gutman had that experiment where he could predict with what accuracy. I think it was like the high notes. He claimed 90, 90%, I believe. So the statement is that, uh, he could watch you interact for 15 to 20 minutes and he could tell whether or not you would divorce and what that I correct me if I'm wrong.
It's been a long time since I've read Gottman, but I haven't gotten trained. Was that what he was actually observing? Was you reenacting conflict? And the big proponent it's healthy to have constant. Right. I see just as many couples who are in distress because they avoid conflict as couples who have conflict all the time, how you have conflict, that's important.
But most importantly, at the end of conflict, do both parties feel heard, even if they couldn't reach agreement. And after that it's held you to repair, right? I think that, that reparation and I've spoken about this before, like that never happened in our family. There was no like ownership of what happened.
Like I did something wrong, like whatever. So there was definitely no reparation and thankfully, you know, I've had people in my life who've encouraged me that it's the coming back together. That actually is where you build the strength in the relationship. It's okay for you to have conflict or have a fracture or whatnot.
As long as you can figure out a way to yeah. Like come back together in that and find your healing. So I think that that's incredible. So along this idea of fuck saving face, if there was something that you wish that people would remove the guilt and the shame and stigma around, what would you say? Like what's something that you've come across in your work or in your life that you wish people would know about?
Fucking everything.
Everything about how much you make, how you got your job, talk about how you're having sex, what you like, talk about everything. Uh, I think so, so much of that, uh, the stigmas around conversation about these things are based on a control. Hmm. Right. Uh, when it comes to not talking about your salary that's so that companies can pay you less without you knowing about it, compared to people within your industry to prevent moving up within the ladder when you're in a relationship.
And the entire point of being in a relationship is to have in shared vulnerability, what's holding you back. It's easier said than done. I get that. I'm not saying that that's, you know, where everyone has to be right now. Right. But learn it now, you know, you'll, you'll quickly realize that a lot of the things that you thought mattered don't matter.
How old are you? Right. I see that every day, every year, when I look back on my life and just live life with, without the, what ifs. Yeah. I feel like one of the undercurrent messages that you're sharing is this ability to grow at any age that like, there is no limit to how that can happen. And there's no like timeline as to how it's going to look that all of us can perpetually evolve and grow as we become more and more aware of, you know, who we want to become or some of the things that we can let go of.
So I think that that is a beautiful message because I would never want anybody to feel like it's too late to like. Feel better or find that happiness. Absolutely. Yeah, it is never too late. It is never too late to change to heal. It's not too late to let go of resentment. It's not too late to face an accuser, even if they've passed on.
Right. We do that work within narrative therapy. We do that work with a lot of different concepts. So. It's again, it starts with those small, tiny moments, right? I think a lot of times the issue is that people think that they look at a goal and they realize that that peak of that mountain is so lofty.
It's so exhausting. There's no way I can ever possibly make it there, but it's one step at a time. And that's what I feel like a lot of my job as a therapist is, is to one, remind you of that goals still there it's a far ways and you got to keep walking, but also to look behind you and see how far you've come at every point, right?
It's that delicate balance of the two. So that to keep that motivation, I love it. Oh, one more question, because I was going to ask how people can find you, but I also wanted to ask about what the Asian mental health collective is. You're a part of that. So I'd love for you to speak to what that is, and then share how people can connect with you.
Oh man. It's elevator pitch time. It's just been an honor to serve the community in this way, but Asian men, 12th collective started out as a Facebook group for people to be vulnerable ballooned to 60,000 members in three years. Because it's so needed within our community. So many people didn't know how to have these conversations.
How do we rock? And there, we built it into a full-blown nonprofit, five oh one. And now we're doing so many different things. We have so many different projects. We have Asian, mental health professionals, subtle Asian, mental health professionals are both on Facebook. The groups where professionals can network get clients.
We have mentoring groups within there. We have support groups for therapists in there for our laymen. We help guide some of those conversations. We have launched an initiative to have free support groups with therapists within our group. We also are launching a program for subsidized therapy, so free therapy.
As of right now, we're doing as much as we can with the funds that we can in making sure that we have all in place. But just for this year, we are donating $88,000 back to the team for that we have waves, which does virtual round tables. So once a month be tackled different, difficult topics with the layman so that we can discuss these things and normalize these conversations, whether it be generational trauma, uh, the emasculation of Asian male racism, you know, all these different difficult topics.
And then we also have an annual conference called transformation at the end of the year. Last year was an eight hour conference. We had Lisa Ling from CNN. We had a pull Ono decorated medalist. We had Wesley Chan from Wong Fu Adrian Raphael and like 30 panels. It was a beautiful event. And we were doing that now.
And who knows? We have no idea where those projects will. We'll go as for myself. You can find me on my website as a tired therapist.com because I am tired for you going through that now will help shoulder that burden with you as well. I love it. Thank you so much for your time today and for your sharing.
Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I hope that wherever you are in the world, whatever it is that you're going through, you find the support that you need and really remove any feelings of guilt and shame around asking for help. We are all human. We're all going through these experiences and. I've learned from my own experiences of sharing, whether that's in writing or in person, that the more that I open up, the more that people open up to me and that sense of connection is so deeply rewarding and meaningful.
See you on Friday for our mindfulness practice.
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