EPISODE 47: CHANGING COLLEGE ADMISSIONS TO FOCUS ON RACIAL JUSTICE WITH MARIE BIGHAM
MEET
MARIE BIGHAM
Marie Bigham is the Founder and Executive Director of ACCEPT (Admissions Community Cultivating Equity & Peace Today), an advocacy group and community that centers racial justice in the college admissions process and profession. Recently named a “Global Game Changer” by Facebook, Marie is a national leader in college admission redesign and reform. In 2018, ACCEPT received the Excellence in Education Award from the National Association for College Admissions Counseling, awarded to “those who use their prominence to advance equity and access in education”.
Marie’s lifelong commitment to racial justice has informed her professional path. With almost 25 years in the college admissions ecosystem, Marie has served on the Board of Directors for the National Association of College Admission Counseling (NACAC); as Vice Chair and Director of Communication for Association of College Counselors in Independent Schools (ACCIS); and on the Board of Directors of Texas Association of College Admissions Counseling (TACAC). Marie entered admissions at her alma mater, Washington University in St. Louis (Class of 1995), where she earned a BA in Political Science and Women’s Studies and a minor in Glassblowing. She served as Associate Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Washington U, as Associate Director of College Counseling at Riverdale Country School (NY), and as Director of College Counseling at The Bishop’s School (CA), Greenhill School (TX), and Isidore Newman School (LA). Whenever possible, Marie enjoys the culture, food, and sounds of New Orleans with her husband, Colin Pettus.
Follow Marie on Twitter and Instagram:
@acceptgroup
SHOW NOTES
Marie Bigham, founder and Executive Director of ACCEPT, talks about her early childhood — she shares what it was like to grow up biracial in predominantly white environments, as well as how shocking it was when she realized at one point that her mother raised her and her brother differently, because one of them looks more white. We’ll talk about gender and racial equity when it comes to the college admissions process and higher education.
Marie is very open and forthcoming with both her professional and personal stories. You’ll also hear about her journey through therapy and how in her professional work, she’s realized that the tiger parenting pressures don’t come solely from Asian parents.
We also cover:
Her company, ACCEPT
“Maybe five, six years ago... I started to really have a different experience with my identity. And ,what does it mean to be an Asian woman? What does it mean to be multiracial Asian woman in this country to understand that there are many others like me, who didn’t speak the language?”
— Marie Bigham
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Judy Tsuei 0:00
Okay, so if you grew up like I did, then getting straight A's was probably not good enough, you probably had to get some a pluses. And then also, there wasn't anything like if you got accepted into Harvard, or in my case, you know, I got to Berkeley. And so that was like pretty decent, I guess for a public school education.
Judy Tsuei 0:21
Today's interview is with Marie Bigham, who's the founder and executive director of accept, and that stands for admissions community cultivating equity and peace today. It's an advocacy group and community that centers racial justice, and the college admissions process and profession. And I think it's super fascinating, if you are, you know, thinking about higher education for your child, or just to get a different lens to see what's happening in the world of college education today.
Judy Tsuei 0:46
And, you know, for me, growing up, I was very much programmed to believe that that was like, the ultimate goal was that you better fucking hustle to get into a great school, and that that status you would carry with you throughout years and years of your life.
Judy Tsuei 1:02
Maria was recently named a Global Game Changer by Facebook, and she's a national leader in college admission redesign and reform. She has almost 25 years in the college admissions ecosystem. And she served on the board of directors for the National Association of college admission counseling, and many more organizations. It's a really fascinating conversation, because she talks about her early childhood and growing up biracial, growing up in predominantly white environments, and also how she realized at one point that her mother raised her and her brother differently because of the way that they looked.
Judy Tsuei 1:34
So because one of them looks more white, her mother raised that child in one way. And then because one of them looked more Asian, her mother raised that child in a different way. So some gender conversations also play into this as well. And Maria is very open and forthcoming with both her professional and personal stories. So I hope you get a lot out of today's interview.
Judy Tsuei 2:02
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei, and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.
Judy Tsuei 2:19
Welcome back to the fuck saving face podcast where we talk about all things mental and emotional health for the quote unquote model minority. We're here to break taboos, to really share stories so that you can feel connected to other people's experiences knowing that you're not alone, to remove any guilt and shame that you might feel thinking that you know, you've done these things, or you've experienced these things nobody else knows, given the conversations that I've had with Marie. So Maria is my guest today, Marie Bigham.
Judy Tsuei 2:44
We have a lot that we have related with each other on even though our backgrounds culturally and you know, professionally have been different. So I hope that you'll get the same experience today. So Marie Bigham was the founder and executive director of accept and her organization, which stands for admissions community cultivating equity and peace today, which I love. We talked before we got on to this interview about how we think that so many of the things that we experienced as the quote unquote, model minority is unique to us.
Judy Tsuei 3:12
However, because of the populations that Marie works with, she's also experienced the same tendencies and the same types of Tiger parenting, let's say, in white families or in other ethnic groups. So I'm just gonna turn it over to Marie for you to share a little bit about your cultural background and your professional background where you are in the world. And just to welcome you to the podcast today.
Marie Bigham 3:32
Ah, thank you so much, Judy. I'm stoked to be here. Really. This is like a highlighter.
Judy Tsuei 3:38
Thank you.
Marie Bigham 3:39
Yeah, so my name is Marie Bigham. She her ethically and I didn't my my background is I am Vietnamese and white. My mother is Vietnamese. My father was white, because of my age, and my very Gen exness of me, but also because I think this is important thing because I was born in that in the loving generation, you know, five years only after the loving v Virginia decision that made interracial marriage, okay.
Marie Bigham 4:04
And subsequently, my my being okay, I think of myself in many ways as other with a big capital O, this is kind of how I have always approached the world. So either we talked about me really diving into my Asian-ness and my Vietnamese-ness. This is something that's relatively new to me something I've only explored in my identity, really in depth in like the last five or six years. So just to put that out there. I live in New Orleans. It's such a pleasure and a privilege to live here. I lived all over the country.
Marie Bigham 4:31
I grew up in first Southern Illinois, wonderful town, and then later suburban St. Louis. But my husband and I have lived all over and we're here in New Orleans, which just to acknowledge is also the ancestral and unseeded home of the CI mucha, the Houma and the Choctaw Indians, and it's really important to me that I acknowledge that but also say, You know that I honor and will work in partnership often in those communities as well. So my work for 23 years 24 years was in college admissions.
Marie Bigham 5:00
Which, yeah, lots of times and then aging can be like, this is a conversation folks want to have. So I worked in college admissions at my alma mater, Washington University in St. Louis for seven years. And after that worked at four of the most selective fancy private schools around the country as a college counselor as director of college counseling, and had the privilege to kind of gaining a really like large voice nationally, in media and in leadership, of different organizations that that my profession engages with. And in 2016, I started an organization in the middle of the night because I was pissed. That is now called, Accept, but I'm just gonna assume we can pass on the show. Oh, yeah.
Marie Bigham 5:44
Originally, we were called admissions people sick of this shit. Um, Mike Brown's murder in St. Louis. And Ferguson really changed my life and how he viewed the world and my responsibility to move through this world. And in 2016, there was a another shooting in Dallas, Texas, which was a city where I had lived, and it was just again, pissed off in the middle of the night, I was like, I don't know how to fix these huge ills in the world. But I've got this sphere of influence, it's admissions. There's plenty of racial stuff that we need to fix in this including in the profession itself. So I started what I thought would be like a small little Facebook group of like 40 or 50. Friends hanging out, and is now almost 7000. Members. Yeah.
Marie Bigham 6:20
The mission of Accept is that we empower professionals in our ecosystem, who want to center anti racism and racial justice in the past college and in the professional community of college admissions. So I've been doing that full time for almost two years now.
Judy Tsuei 6:38
That's amazing.
Marie Bigham 6:38
That's where we are.
Judy Tsuei 6:39
Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the things that we can dive into a little bit later, because this is a way to your topic is the systemic issues that we experienced, that we might not even be cognizant of. But one of the things that I wanted to address is the fact that you mentioned that you're only now kind of coming into your racial identity, and really embracing that, knowing that I don't think you're alone.
Judy Tsuei 6:58
Because I think that that was the same way it was, for me. It's taken a long time for me to stop shunning elements of myself, and just better understanding and and I've actually, you know, gone to live in Asia, I've lived in Taiwan, I've lived in China. So I've had all these random, different experiences to experience myself and my identity in different ways.
Judy Tsuei 7:16
But you and I share the same upbringing in that we were raised in predominantly white neighborhoods, and you have an exceptionally unique circumstance to because your white family was also a family of prominence in a small town where you work. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Marie Bigham 7:32
Sure. Yeah. It's interesting, because there is I think, unfortunately, United States and something that I grew up with this stereotype, this ugly story of Vietnamese women, and US soldiers in that time. I've never watched any of those 80s Vietnam was held movies. Because I watched only those The only women I saw there who looked like me who looked like my mom who looked like my Auntie's were sex workers, were dangerous people or were background just being killed.
Marie Bigham 8:01
So I grew up in a town I was born in 73. My mom did not come here. As a refugee. My mom came here before the end of the war, and actually came here from France. My mom didn't grow up, really immersed Vietnamese culture either. She was one of those families that were very wealthy, and they were able to leave before things got sticky. So most of my mom's life before the US was actually in France. So that's always kind of tricky to to think about. So mom came here in 73, was born in 73.
Marie Bigham 8:30
But we were in this tiny town in southern Illinois, where my father was one of seven kids were the only non white people in the town of 2500. And at the same time, like that could have been a really dangerous situation, I think for many, many, many people of color, who experienced that my dad's family was prominent in the town, extremely well respected. And so I think that there was a lot of protection that we had in that way. Right? Like they were they were respected people.
Marie Bigham 8:59
And if that family was okay with this, somehow, like it was going to be fine. And yet, there were moments where I remember things really starkly right, like being in Fourth of July parade, I was gonna say it was four maybe. And people shouting at me and my mom and then my baby brother to like, go back to where we came from. And I'm like, Oh, we live down the street.
Marie Bigham 9:18
There. Right. But some of the scarier memories, I can think of two or three times when I was maybe in first or second grade where people threw rocks through the windows in our house, and happened to come through my bedroom that has like written on it, like cheeks go home, and shit like that. So those moments happened to I don't really have any experience with my Vietnamese family.
Marie Bigham 9:40
I have two older sisters who were adopted who were fully Vietnamese that came here extremely young, and so little connection in that way. But my mom's family who were here like we didn't have a lot of interaction with them. We didn't have interactions really in town or anything with age anybody Asian at all or even non white. So Blair is new. Like he said that I wasn't white like that.
Marie Bigham 10:00
It was clear, I didn't really have an understanding what it meant to be Asian. When I was 11, we moved to suburban St. Louis, a much bigger city, and much more diverse. Like it's like right away, boom, just much more diverse. No Vietnamese, who I knew of, but certainly Asian people and but I immediately identified with people of color, but I knew that wasn't also mine, and also being half white, like, you know that too, right? Like, you know, how you navigate things or not. And so as far I think this idea of like other always being that core almost identity for me, whenever I filled out forms for college, the box I checked, said other
Marie Bigham 10:35
because you couldn't pick two, that wasn't right. So I could only be other was a big fat capital O in many ways. Even when I did admissions and was really focused on that my focus was always on students of color, marginalized students, but did not quite know how to dive into the nuances of Asian ness through that I was always able to be a safe place for Asian students and had that ability to code switch with Asian families. Right? What, when so many of those trips that we share among our community about college admissions will come up, I'd be like, No, no, no, that's not true. And you can trust me like, I'm one of us. Like, I could always do that, right?
Marie Bigham 11:11
We used to like joke, no joke in my family that like I was not the Asian kid, like my brother was the Asian child. I was the white child. I'm very headstrong, extremely outspoken. Some definitions, but true. I'm allergic to ginger. What Asians are allergic to me, I still can't use chopsticks. I don't think it was ever like this adamant like I'm pushing against. But it was hard for me to understand how I could not being able to do math well, and not being able to each injure did not mean I was less Asian.
Marie Bigham 11:41
But I would always make those dumb jokes and crack that and try to figure out my identity in that way. And then like, so like maybe five, six years ago priority starting except I started to really have a different experience with my identity. And what does it mean to be an Asian woman? What does it mean to be multiracial Asian woman in this country to understand that there are many others like me, who didn't speak the language to do that. But still, that's part of it. Like, that's only been a couple of years. And it's been fascinating and challenging to? Yeah, I'm sorry, it was a lot of work. I don't know.
Judy Tsuei 12:13
How many of us have, you know, and I still do it to this day. And I asked myself, is this something that I should stop doing in regards to like, making the joke before someone else makes it
Marie Bigham 12:23
Right,
Judy Tsuei 12:23
And, you know, saying, like, I've definitely said this before, I'm the whitest Asian person that you know, because I also grew up in a predominantly white environment where my messaging at home was, do everything that you can to fit in with the white people. But also, when you come home, you better speak Mandarin, you know, different cultures do all this stuff. So it was so confusing. Mm hmm. This school culture is one in which raise your hand be outspoken, you know, like, get to the head of the class, demonstrate your skills and your magnificence, essentially.
Judy Tsuei 12:54
And that is what we were taught at home At home, it's, you better just listen to what I say, don't make a noise, I don't really want to see you. And if I do it, not better not be because you're getting in trouble. You better bring home, all this stuff. So it made it very difficult. Because you know, in that environment, I was taught to do everything that I could to issue my identity to fit in with a prominent majority. And then also figure out ways to navigate, honoring my culture and bringing that forward.
Judy Tsuei 13:26
And I think one of the stories that you shared with me, which you just alluded to, was this awareness that you had when you were at an event, and you had feedback where, you know, you started to realize your otherness, a bit more even. And then you went home and talk to your mom and asked her about it asked her about like the Asian this and all of that. And then she said, Oh, well, you know, I raised you as my white kid and I raised your brother as the Asian one. So can you talk a little bit about like your rates were and like how that impacted you?
Marie Bigham 13:57
Oh, sure. And you know, what's even funnier is I mentioned this earlier, I watched the HBO documentary reality show House of Whoa, or as I love to call it, the crazy rich, real Vietnamese house families of Houston. And after watching that, I was like, cool. I was raised way more Vietnamese. And I knew
Marie Bigham 14:16
Way more. But yeah, so again, working in college counseling was like the early 2000s. And I was having this experience with a family and the parents were Chinese immigrants to us. So I'm born here in the States at a very fancy, mostly white private school in San Diego. And he was also someone who went to a Chinese school on the weekend, like he was a kid trying to figure that out himself. And his parents were approaching the college process in a way that I thought was really harmful.
Marie Bigham 14:44
And I wasn't breaking through in the way I thought and this was right at the beginning of that whole idea of like Tiger parent Tiger mom coming out and that being celebrated and not feeling okay with that. So I remember calling my mom and saying, Can we talk about this because I don't understand how this being racist ways being described this way. And I'm seeing this and yet that's not what I experienced. It's much, much easier for me and my mom to talk about these things with an academic distance view. She herself as an academic, we can't talk about in a personal way, because that's a lot, right. But I can talk about another family.
Marie Bigham 15:18
nice, comfortable space. But this was sort of surprising to me when her response was, Oh, yeah, because you're my white child. And Joe, my brother, he's my Asian child. And she said, when she had those tendencies to try to push or whatever, that my dad stepped in right away, and I might as firstborn, and that he was very protective, like, No, you can't yell at Murray for that. Either. She's trying her best. And at the same time, like the expectations, my family were extremely high.
Marie Bigham 15:42
So he might have been saying, you know, she's trying her best, but then he would be like, and your best wasn't good enough, right now how you get better. So like, that was the same. It was just if one was wrapped in a hug and more defensive and one, which was like, again, this. But when mom said that, you know, you're my white child, he's my Asian child, there was this very strange, like pain that I felt like, the one person who has been my role model of Asian just told me that I was an Asian. And I was like, 30, at the time, I mean, I wasn't a child. It was like, poof, that's a thing.
Marie Bigham 16:17
Thank God for therapy. And I'm very lucky that despite many cultural, you know, any conversations about it, because my mother was a professor in social work, like therapy and mental health was always a part of my life. And I say that without zoning. But I want to talk about things about in a way. But then my mom started to describe it was really interesting.
Marie Bigham 16:38
And she said, You know, you're headstrong, you, you've always been outspoken, you've never wanted people to tell you what to do. She like we were always gonna butt heads that way. Whereas your brother, he is more compliant, and he wants to be more of a pleaser. And he would just say, Yes, mom and do those things. And so it was interesting, because it wasn't necessarily your more mature, he's more Asian. It was personality traits of how compliance but she was reading it through that lens of her cultural upbringing that I didn't know. And I didn't, it didn't understand. But that was one of those moments. I was like, cool. Like, who the hell am I if the, the singular Asian I know best was just like, girl, you're not as
Judy Tsuei 17:17
It's similar to not racially related, but my mom, I'd always look to her as like the writer, you know, even though she wasn't necessarily published. And she was a Chinese school teacher and everything, but like writing, I had always been told this her thing. And then one day, as an adult, I asked her about it. And she goes, Oh, I don't know, writing just came easy to me. And I was like, and she's like, I'm not like a writer. Like, I don't love writing. And I was like, whoa,
Marie Bigham 17:42
Wait, what?
Judy Tsuei 17:43
I know. Because my whole professional work. Thinking that like, there was someone in my life who like modeled that. Right. But I think you know, strange. Yeah, it's, it's like, it's a total mindset shift. And, you know, how many times has that happened to every one of us where all of a sudden, one little comment or something just changes our whole belief system, or our understanding of what we thought was true, and what wasn't? You know, one of the things that you mentioned that I want to hit upon too, is the idea of therapy.
Judy Tsuei 17:43
I fully believe in having an objective person that you can talk to I was in therapy for years, when I had my eating disorder. You know, I've hit depression multiple times, especially with postpartum depression was really, really bad. And even like getting on medication and stuff. So all these things that just even as any normal person would probably have challenges with and like stigma attached to it. But then when you add on top of that the lens of you save face, and you don't go ask for help. When I was living in China, the first time around, one of my friends from junior high happened to start a blog before it was like ever a big thing happened to marry the co founder of Zynga at the time, he was like.
Judy Tsuei 17:43
Hey, you know, like, you're a really good writer. Why don't you start this blog or living in China, it's interesting. So started it just to share about my adventures, I had no idea that along the way, I would start writing about my eating disorder, about my mental health, and not all these things. So then they started, they shared my site on the homepage of the site. And all of a sudden, I started getting 1000s of readers a day and because their demographic was Asian American, the readers and the readership I had was Asian American, and how many comments I got, I wish that I could go to therapy, I wish that I had someone to talk to I like your thing, your writing is the closest thing that I can get to some sort of processing of what it is that I'm experiencing.
Judy Tsuei 17:43
So you know, when it comes to therapy, and the access is a whole other topic, whether or not you have access and finding a provider who specifically understands your unique background and dynamic, you know, making sure you interview the therapist, not every therapist is great I've experienced or not and can be more harmful than do good. But you know, can you talk about just therapy and and also how it plays into kind of the things that you've seen in academics, like what people need to know and maybe just to change that discourse a bit.
Marie Bigham 17:52
Yeah, like I said, I'm very, very lucky that because my mother's profession and her academic focus, which was social work, that therapy, introspection working on oneself in that way, was a given that it was a part of her profession in her professional training. And so that was a good thing, right? Like I had access to that beyond, like, age 12, which would have been mid 80s. That's unusual.
Marie Bigham 20:31
A part of that, too. I just have to acknowledge this is that me, I was a messy kid who isn't. But, you know, my parents have four of us to raise my older sister had much bigger challenges than I did. And so they had a lot going on. And I think some of it was like, offloading me like y'all, we're gonna hire somebody to take care of this here, like someone drives you gymnastics.
Marie Bigham 20:53
And sometimes I wonder if that in some ways has created some of those challenges and having those emotional relationships like with my mom in that way, because there's always been someone else like, I've never had to have to confide and process with her because I've always had others. They were like, I was hope this was the space to do that, if that makes sense. It's always been an important part of my life is when I was young, when I did not have the means to be choosy.
Marie Bigham 21:21
You know, when I was looking for, after college, like doctors who would do a sliding scale, you know, something like someone who would understand like I can afford $10 a week, it was worth it. When I could start being choosy, though, it became important to me to work with a woman of color, if at all possible. I've at times had white women's therapists, but not men, after my college years, and that's just my preference and my choice. And it's one of the things this is gonna sound frivolous was true.
Marie Bigham 21:50
Whenever I've moved to a new city, like my checklist is, you know, new therapist hair person, manicurist, like those have got to happen, like right away. And I think now I'm just like, have a good like spot to figure that out. But, you know, when I first started going to therapy when I was a kid, because I couldn't like what we would now call anxiety, I think 80s it was just like this really intense kid who bouncing a lot. And that needs to be perfect all the time.
Marie Bigham 22:15
You know, I have had definite bouts of depression that were real, like, intense, go on medication, and that were debilitating, thankfully, but moments where like, I wasn't able, I didn't have the perspective to say your reactions are out blown right now. The constant flood of emotions 24. Seven isn't right, the up all night with the hateful self talk. That's not these aren't supposed to happen. So I've had, you know, three or four moments like that, where it took me a while I needed professional help. It's not fair to rely only on your spouse and friends. Like they're, they're not the containers for that.
Marie Bigham 22:54
You know, that's always been a thing that I've really tried to be cognizant of, you know, yeah. So that's something that's always been important, figuring out later in life. And that this, this goes to my Asian mess, figuring out later in life. So I have a math learning disability, and adult add the learning disability we learned about earlier in life, like my mid 20s. But the adult add not until I think, my 39th or 40th birthday. And it was just I was just constantly anxious in it and couldn't figure out why everything was so easy before. And I was always so productive and moving so fast. Suddenly, I just couldn't do it. And I thought it was depression, I thought a lot of things. But my therapist very graciously was like, describe your workspace.
Marie Bigham 23:40
Is this is the time like as a counselor, I have to write a lot of college recommendations, and I would do it at home and I'd be like, okay, so like I have like four laptops set up? What am I living room, one of my kitchen, one of the laundry one of my bedrooms. So if I'm like, oh, gosh, I've been writing here for 10 minutes, but I need to drink. You know, catch myself doing dishes like nope, there's a laptop there. I could do that. Like No, it's not.
Marie Bigham 24:01
figuring out that was something that I had managed and made into mice super power for so long, that my life isn't a place where that tool wasn't working anymore that had actually turned against me. And so I think for me in the last like 10 years, that's probably been like my biggest therapeutic breakthrough.
Marie Bigham 24:18
Figuring that out and really understanding through that my drive understanding the the idea that productivity is the most important thing to me and but learning disabilities add we don't talk about those things in the Asian community. Like that's not a thing and you add in that, you know, my willingness when I have problems with math to messages were always told to me it's okay you're a girl math is hard. Or B you're Asian. You should be good at this you jump must just be lazy.
Marie Bigham 24:49
No one was noticing I was writing numbers backwards and out of order. Until right but that those two stereotypes just kept dropping hints and add in those things. About add, like, again, in many Asian cultures. it's something like talking
Judy Tsuei 25:04
Is like amazing. My mom used to say that, like, how can you multitask to the nth degree? Essentially, it's so to the point that, you know, like, you're doing 50 bajillion things at once. And, you know, and it wasn't even until the last like few decades, I would say, where they were just saying, like, Okay, well, multitasking, your brain actually isn't function like that, you know, you can't really do things productively in that way. But growing up like in to this day, I still get a little bit anxious if I'm like, I don't know how to have downtime. I don't know how to like, not be productive, because then what's my value that I'm bringing to anything or anyone? So
Marie Bigham 25:37
I think one of the nice things about this pandemic is we've all had to kind of shift that ever so slightly, right? And at first, it was like, we all if you don't have your hustle on right now, like we're not making it all this time. And then I think a different realizations kicked in, like, no, it's okay to just sit and be like, yeah, that's so that's kind of my big therapeutic story. And honestly, I talk about my mental health challenges. I don't, I can't say like, totally, honestly, all the time, like I'm still pretty known broadly for for making things seem effortless, as someone told me the other day, and I was like, Oh, yeah, I should. I shouldn't do that all the time. Right? It's not true. And it sets up for other people.
Judy Tsuei 26:17
It does. And you know, because we're always comparing our insides based on someone else's outside and social media exacerbates that very much so that you think that the grid that you see, and what happens in that square is exactly how life looks, you don't see like everything that's going on outside the square. So I think that, you know, one of the things that I even learned in parenting too, and I heard this from a friend of mine, where she started observing that one of her children was very anxious about, like, needing to do things correctly.
Judy Tsuei 26:42
And I saw that in my daughter too. And I thought, Okay, well, she's either, you know, getting this from some of the modeling that I'm demonstrating, or perhaps it's like an inherent quality in her because, you know, it could very well be might be innate. But one of the things that my friend recommended is that she started purposely making mistakes, or at least calling them out loud and saying, like, Oh, I put the dish on the wrong cabinet, or, you know, like, I did this, I made a mistake.
Judy Tsuei 27:06
Oh, well. And so helping yourself in that way helps other people too. Because I think, for many people who are listening, I bet that you've also all heard the compliment, quote, unquote, compliment of Oh, but like, you know, all this stuff comes so easy to you, or, like, you know, how do you do all of these things. And meanwhile, you're like a duck. That's like, all serene on the top, and paddling like crazy underneath the water. So yeah, Think hard one. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei 27:34
And I think that the more authentic and vulnerable we can be, however, that looks for us. And not everybody needs to see it, you know, and like, you can just have your own inner circle, but it will give other people permission to just kind of exhale, and you know, how many people I know in my life who hold themselves to very high rigid standards. If the piece of feedback that I hear all the time is, you have ridiculously high expectations of yourself, like constantly, and a lot of that is like, you know, pulling it apart as an adult, like, how do we really understand what our core values are? Like, based on what who I am as a person, not just what was imprinted upon me growing up academically? How have you seen all of this Asian is translated I would you like to see differently?
Marie Bigham 28:16
Such a big lesson? Oh, gosh, the first thing that comes to my mind, it's something that that I feel, like is very, very fresh was a couple of conversations I've had, I need the academic world, the non Asian academic world to understand we're not a monolith, that the model minority stereotype is actually pretty bad that when as academics, when as counselors when well, meaning people say things like,
Marie Bigham 28:43
Oh, God, don't write your essay as a math competition, you're kind of like every other Asian kid like that's harmful. Also, it's racist. I would love for academia to quit that. And I would love for you in my professional spaces, college admissions, I would love for I'm going to struggle with putting this correctly, I would love for the whole idea that Asians are against affirmative action, to be disaggregated to have like a very real conversation of those in Asian identities.
Marie Bigham 29:15
What's their background? What's the educational attainment because we it's a very different story, but also to be able to say to those communities convincingly like affirmative action is not the thing that's keeping you out of college. It's actually whiteness and white supremacy. And the whole idea of the thumb on the scale for race is actually all about whiteness. And I get anxious when sometimes either I hear or there's the stereotype of Asians are against affirmative action because they think that black kids are taking their spots like who are so much packed into that and hear from so many directions so that I want to figure out how to fix that's stupid, pervasive and deeply incorrect. storyline. That's so hurtful.
Marie Bigham 30:00
Right, because how that plays out unless the big systemic issue, but how it plays out, like in my former office as a college counselor is the family that says to me completely innocently? Well, meaningly should, should my child not check the box that says they're Asian? Won't that hurt them? Should they not look at colleges in California, because I don't like Asian. That the whole idea of selective college admissions should be driven in a way that asks Asian students to subjugate identity to hide identity to form their identity, and form values. This was rounded, I wish somehow we could really get our head around that and fix that, because it's so harmful in so many ways, and so difficult to fight?
Judy Tsuei 30:42
Well, I think that the work that you're doing is so incredible. And it's like a step in that direction. I think encouraging more people to speak up and share their truth, however, that's going to look whether that's in a conversation with someone to change their mind, or to expand consciousness on both ends or actually advocating for somebody else. I think that, you know, one of the things that I'm starting to come to terms with and realize is that in that scarcity mentality, which totally makes sense, if you're raised by immigrant parents who had no money, or struggled with money, that you're just thinking about yourself, and like, what are we going to do to survive, but there's so much more to contribute, there's the idea of creating a legacy.
Judy Tsuei 31:20
There's the idea of like, you can help other people, wherever you are, whatever means that you have, and sometimes the best way that you can help people is, you know, advocating for someone else, and advocating for yourself so that you feel comfortable doing that, and bringing other people along for the ride and challenging those like racist notions that we are also raised with in our own families of origin. Let's just talk about that for a second.
Marie Bigham 31:44
It has been one of my biggest personal struggles, from every perspective of dealing with the anti blackness deep in my family, whether the white side of the family or the Asian side of the family, certainly at times within myself in ways that I'm surprised by like I was based in that water too. And I find that when we get to college conversations about admissions that will cause a flare up point that I have no patience for.
Marie Bigham 32:13
And I really struggle of where I sit in that because at times, I will hear, you know, again, my colleagues of color who aren't Asian, repeat really nasty Asian stereotypes because well, you know, this is how it is like now as being very anti Asian. And yet, then I'm in communities of mostly Asian, we're talking about college admissions, like, those black kids didn't deserve those spots. I'm like, yep, that's wrong to also race. And it's like, Where the fuck do I fit with this? Right? And, yeah, but it's been a real.
Judy Tsuei 32:45
It's super real. It's hard to catch. Because you know, when it's part of your pervasive dialogue, you don't even think to challenge it, especially in Asian cultures, in my family, particularly being subordinate or challenging, any sort of authority is not okay. So whatever, I'm told, I'm going to assume that that's true. And so I've really encouraged my daughter to challenge authority with healthy respect. And I tell her all the time, you are allowed to ask questions and challenge even your mom and your dad, because we are not going to get it right all the time.
Judy Tsuei 33:17
So being able to, I think, become more aware, one of the books that I was reading is called minor feelings, by Kathy. Oh, yeah, I mean, this There you go. Yeah, that was on the stack. It's amazing. Because I think that starting to learn from these people who've done the research, who have personal experiences, and then write about it, when you have the words to express the things that you're going through, or you have something to point to, it's so incredible, because all of a sudden, you're like, Ah, that makes so much sense. It was floating around in my mind for so long. And I just had no idea. So I think that
Marie Bigham 33:53
No, because I just made this book off my shelf at Sunday when I was going to hold up race on campus by Julie Park, University of Maryland. And she rips apart all the ideas that Asian students are either at a disadvantage in admissions, or that brown and black students are the ones who are actively human. Like it really just drills into it, and disaggregates the data into the different nationalities and communities. It's so good.
Judy Tsuei 34:19
That's amazing. I was gonna ask you for some of your references. Since you brought that up. You know, and I think that when we talked before we got on to this recording. I know that with all of the social justice challenges that have come up over the last year, one of the things that I personally felt and didn't know how to address and other people that I've spoken with and interviewed also felt is that in this movement to uplift and raise black and brown voices, what happens to the Asian people because when I grew up I was called a minority with it automatically puts you at like a lesser than status.
Judy Tsuei 34:55
So that term doesn't seem to fit any more marginalized population okay, but it's still again ike similar, but person of color or woman, like that's not how I identified and so I wanted to see if you had any thoughts personally or professionally on like, what to do with that where they are?
Marie Bigham 35:15
It's a lot I struggled this summer to so much and like I said, like I was raised, so not in an Asian community that oftentimes my sympathies my loyalties immediately go to black and brown communities because that's what I was most adjacent to, especially in my younger years. And this this one was a moment I was like, Oh, I'm not welcome in that space right now, either. And that was a really personal, intense hurt that I couldn't understand.
Marie Bigham 35:40
In conversations with other folks like us, we just other people of color, especially by the summer, like, how does that feel to have those to have those other identities centered right now, and it's not yours, it's not your story, man, I just had to like really had to have coming to terms with myself of like, is that just my whiteness really stuffing out right now?
Marie Bigham 35:59
Is that how in the Asian communities, our proximity to whiteness is playing at this moment, that we can't recenter ourselves in a moment, we clearly see the impact on these other communities being disproportionate to what we feel. If we can't dissenter ourselves in this second, then how is that different than someone standing up and shouting all lives matter? Like I had to have some time with myself about that one, because it was some pretty personal feelings. And I'm just like, that's just what that is like, it's okay.
Marie Bigham 36:34
That doesn't denigrate take away from the hurt or racism that I've personally experienced. At that moment. It just was the important one. It's not the important story right now. Right. And I think it's just acknowledging that sometimes those stories aren't yours. Sometimes you have to end up in the back and support. And that's really coming to terms with ally ship, and homicide apprentices. That's really what it is to stand with someone and to work in communities in those hard moments to say, It's okay, I'm not centered.
Judy Tsuei 37:08
I love that I love that idea of like, you know, holding space. I mean, when I was teaching a lot of yoga or mindfulness practices, it is you're just holding space for whatever's coming up, whatever needs to be at the forefront, and then understanding that it'll change, something else will take precedence. And so I think that that approach, and then also understanding, like, it doesn't make it any less of an effect for the racism and the traumas that we've experienced, it doesn't take that away. It's like that idea of forgiveness that like, you know, just because you forgive someone doesn't mean that you excuse their actions, or, you know, make that Okay, so that is huge.
Marie Bigham 37:42
So that was a really hard thing to come to, like I really, I just have to acknowledge it was a lot of stumbles, there's a lot of falls. And like, Here I am leading this group about racial equity. And I select this one up to like, I have to, I need to acknowledge that I had to apologize a lot for not just the current beliefs of the past you so those things I had to, I had to be a part of acknowledgement and accountability before I could do anything else. And some of that was just with myself.
Judy Tsuei 38:10
Right. And I love that understanding of accountability to like really radical responsibility and taking a look at ourselves. Also understanding that like, we're all as humans stumbling and trying to figure out this time, this crazy, crazy time, right on the planet.
Judy Tsuei 38:24
Let's give ourselves some grace and doing that. I know that, Oh, my gosh, I'm blanking on her name, tiny little woman, I went to see her live Glenn and Doyle. So her recent book that came out, I actually really loved it, even though when I actually went to go see your lab, I was like, not such a big fan of like this thing. But her book was so great. And one of the things that she does talk about how she was attacked for trying to shine a spotlight on black and brown voices, when she is a white woman of privilege. And so I think one of the things to understand as well is we have created that sense of canceled culture.
Judy Tsuei 39:00
And we all the easiest thing to do when we're hurting is to look for someone to blame. Yeah. So that makes sense, like as a human behavior. But how can we, you know, start to move beyond that. I heard this quote, one time in a yoga class, and I've always come back to it again and again, is you may not be responsible for your first thought, but you are responsible for your next one. So our knee jerk reactions, whatever we learned growing up, however, we're showing up, okay, so we might have that reaction. But then the next step, please let me take a moment and then choose a response. And how do I want to show up and who do I want to be?
Judy Tsuei 39:35
So I think that's one of the ways that we can hopefully give ourselves grace as we make those motions. And I like that you were saying too, that you took responsibility and you had to, you know, like, make amends and really speak up for that because I think that's another thing that's not taught in Asian culture, is to say you're sorry, or to acknowledge where you've gone wrong, right. So it is a bold act to say I'm sorry, and to, you know, have that and I remember that my sister and I, and my sister is only three years younger than me, we were in at a bar in Santa Monica, like a couple of years ago, there was alcohol involved. So like, you know, emotions are running high on history with me.
Marie Bigham 40:17
And we contain multitude.
Judy Tsuei 40:19
Were sitting at the bar, and she started getting really upset at me. And I held the space for her. And, you know, let her Express. And the only time that I started, like, speaking back was when she started talking about parenting, which I'm like, well, you're not a parent right now. This is not a conversation.
Judy Tsuei 40:37
And then, you know, I couldn't go to sleep that night, I had to record some mindfulness tracks the next day. So I emailed her. And I, you know, said, I want more than anything for us to be close as a family, like we were not raised with that we are actually very much at odds with each other, because she's a lot like my mom, and I'm a lot like my dad. So we're born innately to have differences. But I see what you're doing. And I want to create that. So but next time, can we not do it at a bar, and we're like, you know, in public, if you want to, I'll go to a therapist with you.
Judy Tsuei 41:06
I'll do whatever it is that you want. But also, I feel like I'm the only person in our family and we have four kids as well. I'm the oldest of four who's ever said, I'm sorry. And yeah, who's ever like, tried to figure out some inroads to that. And so if you're going to blame me for all the stuff or like, you know, how this anger or whatever I understand, we all have different experiences, that's fine. But like, Can you just acknowledge that like, that's something that I've tried to do, like, I recognize I was a bully growing up, I was a bully, because I was 10 1112 asked to like all of a sudden become an adult. And the only modeling that I had was to parents were fighting with each other all the time and stressed. So you know, I think that you doing that is such an act of like courage and strength and bravery.
Marie Bigham 41:52
Honestly, like, the biggest thing for me whenever folks have like, what have you biggest lessons and leading except, for me, the most important thing I've learned in running this organization is the importance of apology. And the importance of public apology in some situations. And not only is that hard to overcome, because of how we were raised in our cultures, as women, we are both acculturated to over apologize and to responsibility, which I think for some of us then has meant being really reticent to do so because Damn, I don't want to seem like that.
Marie Bigham 42:26
Right. And lirs strength is seen as holding, right? So for me, overcoming all of those things, to me was an intentional I don't want to say radical but an intentional, intentionally radical change in leadership. And what I wanted a vision of how something could be led in a community to be different. Like I intentionally because I was in too many situations where I saw leaders do everything but for those reasons when for you know, so many others, I'm like, No, I fuck up. I fuck up. Like you said, you know, you could you don't control it.
Marie Bigham 43:06
First, you control the second one. I'm terrible at letting that first thought out of my face, and sometimes out into the world and which time I have to like really cool. Like, I apologize. And oddly, it was Amy Poehler, his book really taught me how to do that. There's this remarkable chapter in it, where she talks about how she really fucked up something. And her attempt to apologize was so poorly taken, as it should have been. And there's a whole chapter about how it took her like a decade to figure out how to fix this situation.
Marie Bigham 43:36
And through it taught her how to apologize, you know, you acknowledge the harm you caused, you name it, you offer some kind of restitution. You again, take responsibility, and you ask for nothing from the other person in return. But there's no plot, there's no explanation. There's no justification is just, I'm analogy I screwed up. Here's how I screwed up. Here's how I believe I hurt you and harmed you. Here's how I'm going to try to do better in my life and in my world. And I appreciate you for taking the time to read this. Amazing, but it was Amy Poehler is chapter taught me that. And so since leading set, like I've tried really, really hard to model that and to do that whenever necessary, not over apologize for things that are not my responsibilities that cheapens it. But I'm not always good at you.
Judy Tsuei 44:30
I mean, that's amazing that you're also doing it in a public forum and also just as a public service announcement, saying I'm sorry that you feel that way is not a fucking apology. Yeah, like. Hey, have had that said to me, and I'm like, What? How does that that's not an apology. That's like discounting someone else's emotions and everyone can have their emotions they can have their reactions and their responses. Everybody is like, you know, has a right to whatever it is they're feeling once it starts like engaging an interacting and impacting someone else. It's a different story, but you're allowed for how you feel. So just that's not an apology, but I love you and what Amy?
Marie Bigham 45:11
Amy Poehler. I read that and I remember like gasping and like crying and like, Oh shit, I've been doing this. Oh.
Judy Tsuei 45:23
Well, as we're coming to a close to this interview, I wanted to ask, you know, the whole platform and everything that we're talking about is fck saving face. So what is one thing that you would really like to get out there into the world for the world to know about this idea?
Marie Bigham 45:38
About like saving face?
Judy Tsuei 45:40
About like breaking a taboo or like, you know, really just stopping this idea that we have to be perfect? And, you know, the guilt and the shame that comes with that? What lesson Have you learned.
Marie Bigham 45:52
My favorite line about guilt and shame. So, you know, I am Vietnamese, I was raised Catholic, and for six months, I was pretty sure I was Jewish. So I cornered the market and guilt and shame and I am impervious to it. Now, as I lovingly say, to my Catholic friends, I gave up guilt for Lent, and never bothered to pick it up again.
Marie Bigham 46:14
Like Gil is such wasted energy, shame. And if it's the driver listening, good introspection and understanding, like opportunity to change or to make amends. Like, to me that feels really different from shame, but it's not always portrayed as such, but, like guilt, that carrying on a burden that, like you have to wear for something that happened or maybe didn't happen, like, I don't have time for that. I don't have the emotional space for that.
Marie Bigham 46:47
And since really kind of coming to terms with it, like, my life has been so much more free, and just
Judy Tsuei 46:56
What everybody wants. Yeah.
Marie Bigham 46:57
Right, just lighter. But guilts holding on to that, and I think you know, guilts, close friend grudges. That's a little more challenging for me to give up sometimes. But that constant hanging on to the negative energy for things in the past, and as we age, and our perceptions change, and we just don't know, like, was that real? Is that not hanging on to that emotion? doesn't know what any good?
Judy Tsuei 47:20
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I had a life coach say that, to me one time that guilt is like a useless emotion. You either learn from it and move on and, you know, rectify the situation, or you don't. But I think that guilt is so pervasive in Asian households too. Like it's a huge motivator to get you to do things. Or to not. Yeah, and so we're gone. me Yeah. Which is amazing to like, continue to reflect and evaluate. So I love that!
Judy Tsuei 47:48
Thank you so much for your time.
Marie Bigham 47:50
That went so fast.
Judy Tsuei 47:51
If people want to follow up with you, where can they find you?
Marie Bigham 47:54
Best way to find us all over the social medias on Facebook, look up, Accept just big capital letters. Our website is accept group.org on Twitter, where accept group, yeah, I'm kind of all over the place.
Marie Bigham 48:09
Thank you, thank you so much for having me. And for this conversation, it's really, it's just so affirming. And in many ways, and this is not to sound, you know, modeling or anything, but in many ways, having having identity be a such a lonely place for me, for me know, first half of my life to be able to find community to discuss these things. And it's such a different way. It's such a such a gift, and I'm just grateful that you allowed me to be a part of it.
Judy Tsuei 48:37
Thank you so much for being a part of it. So definitely follow up with Marie, all the work that you're doing, you know, I'm supporting it near and far just I hope that we can start changing that dialogue and discussion to about higher education about you know, one of the other podcast episodes is all about that, like Tiger parenting of success and what success looks like and this idea of like unschooling, or finding other measures of success. So I think everything that you're doing is helping so many different cultures and and populations. So thank you. Yay.
Judy Tsuei 49:07
Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I look forward to connecting with you on Friday for our mindfulness practice.
Judy Tsuei 49:14
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you liked what you heard and know someone in your life who might also benefit from hearing this episode, please feel free to share it with them. Also, if you'd like to support our show, you can make a one-time donation fcksavingface.com. Or, you can make a recurring donation at patreon.com/fcksavingface. That's “fck” without the “u.” Subscribe today to stay tuned for all future episodes.
