EPISODE 05: UNTIGERING WITH IRIS CHEN
Iris Chen is the founder of the Untigering movement and author of "Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent." Her mission is to promote peaceful parenting, intersectional unschooling, and anti-oppression, especially among Asian communities. After spending 16 years living overseas in China (land of the tiger parent!), she now resides in her native California with her husband, two sons, and cat.
You can read more about her adventures in parenting and unschooling at www.untigering.com.
Follow her:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/untigering
SHOW NOTES
Here are a few things we cover in this episode:
Amy Chua’s Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother
Dr. Shefali Tsabary, The Conscious Parent & The Awakened Family
Janet Lansbury, Toddler Discipline Without Shame
Unschooling
Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
FULL TRANSCRIPT
JUDY: Hi, this is Judy again with the Fck Saving Face podcast. And I'm so excited to have Irish 10 here. For those of you who are watching the video, you can see that I'm holding up the book cover, and you'll also see how I tabbed it on the side, ridiculously with a budget post-it notes. So I was actually reading it with someone who was sitting beside me and as I was highlighting everything, he like turned over and he said, okay, Are you drawing and I'm like, no, I'm highlighting.
He's like, cause it just sounds like you're highlighting the whole page. So I'm so excited to have Iris here because she is an author and the founder of the untiring movement. And for anyone who, you know, is an Asian-American of a certain generation with, you know, parents who are likely immigrants, you've likely experienced the tiger parenting mother as a model. So Amy Chua made it very popular with her book, the battle hymn of the tiger mother, which we can dive into. But before we go on any further, I just want to turn it over to Iris for you to just share a little bit about your story and how you arrived here in this moment.
IRIS: Thank you so much for having me. Yes. It's um, hard to summarize, but I would say. Um, just a little background on myself that I, um, am a second generation Asian American. So I was born in the state. My parents were immigrants from Hong Kong and Vietnam. Um, and yeah, like you said, grew up very typically in with that Asian American and secondary operations experience.
Um, and when I got married, My husband and I actually went out to China and lived there for many, many years. We just came back a couple of years ago. And while I was there, I had a family, I had kids and, um, really ended up just continuing a lot of the patterns that I had grown up with just unconsciously, you know, it's like, Oh, that's, that's all I know.
That's um, what I know how to do and. Then it came to a point where, um, I realized it really wasn't serving me and my family was creating a lot of conflict and just beginning to unpack all the things that, um, just brought me to that moment in terms of my culture, in terms of my upbringing, in terms of my faith, all of that, and realizing that a lot of it.
I didn't want anymore tense and were toxic and I had to unpack a lot of it. So they all that began my process of integrating and behind that, those patterns and. Those yeah. Generational patterns that no longer serve me and my family excited. Cause there's different. Um, chapters and passages that I want to dive into.
JUDY: But one of the things I really want to commend you about, you know, as a writer who writes first person narratives a lot. That you vulnerably share these moments of parenting that I think are so admirable because there's so many of us, especially for the saving face, like, which we'll talk about in a little bit who want to present this perfect image and you share very vulnerable moments of your parenting journey that you realize were toxic or that you realized were not serving your two sons.
And I think that that. Is remarkable. So you know that, and for anybody who's a super nerd or just really wants to dive into, um, kind of like a wonderful breath of. What it is that you've brought in. You've you take so many different elements from different parenting experts, different like researchers, um, there's, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I want to explore with you too.
But, um, you take in all of these different sources of information and pepper it throughout your book. So it's a really rich read and, you know, so I encourage everybody to go ahead and go buy it ASAP. But one of the things that I wanted to do is I wanted to read this, um, on the end of your book, actually, you said I am rich and my complexities and paradoxes as a multicultural person in China, I may not be Chinese enough.
And in America I may not be American enough, but my goal is not to fit into those. Strict Walmart boxes it's to be unapologetically and wholly myself that I can span, expand the board of what it means to be a Chinese American woman and mother. And I just love that so much because I think for so many of us, we're trying to fit into the model, especially if we.
Think about the model minority quote unquote, and like all the ways that we've been silent for so long and instead of trying to fit in, which is a very, it makes sense if you have immigrant parents who fled countries that were, you know, rife with war or, um, whatever it was that they were leaving behind, it makes sense that they want you to assimilate into the majority culture to be safe.
And that makes a lot of sense, but. What I love about what you're encouraging people to do is to not have to shun any parts of you and instead embrace it all. And then let's create a new dynamic that everybody can benefit from. So one of the things that, you know, I'd love to explore. Or with you is you bring in a lot of these societal and cultural understandings of how we got to this place of why, you know, um, we've bought into all these lies that really harm us from a mental, emotional standpoint.
And so one of the things that I'd love for you to explore is the meritocracy and tiger parenting. Cause I'd never seen that written in that way. So can you explain what that is and talk a bit about that. Sure.
IRIS: So, yeah, it's a meritocracy, it's sort of like the American dream, right. Where we come to America thinking that we can just, you know, be self-made people and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and just create the life that we dream of, you know, upward mobility and all that.
Like all the things that maybe in, um, like the home culture that's at home. People didn't feel like they had the freedom to do. And so that, um, that dream and that myth is very intoxicating. And a lot of the times when we, uh, for Asian Americans, we do experience, um, the benefits of that myth, where we come and we can improve our lives in many ways and, um, get the education we want.
Oftentimes pursue careers that was never had the opportunity to. And so it's easy for us to then, um, believe in that myth and in terms of like tiger parenting, it very much feeds into that myth because it's all about. Trying to hit those marks and try, and, you know, the word mobility, the getting into the good schools, but making a name for yourself or all those things.
Uh, so it was really buying into that belief. But the problem with that is I point out in my book that it's not true, that there are so many factors that do contribute to our success or like the doors that are open to us or the doors that are not, um, So one story that I shared in the book was just how, uh, I thought that my parents, you know, like Asians in general are generally very frugal and, um, like put a high standard on having real estate and buying property.
And so I thought like my parents, when we were living in Canada, bought a house and we were able to own a home and build wealth from there. And I just thought, Oh, it's, you know, my parents. Saved money and worked hard. And that's. You know how they did that. And it wasn't until more recently that I realized that it was because of a government program where they were giving the land for like either for free or for very cheap price, to lower income families who applied and all this stuff.
And my mom was working in the government at that time. And so she heard about this program and applied for it. And so just realizing all the, the social structures, all, all the policies. That were in place to provide that opportunity for us, you know? Um, yeah, because otherwise, you know, one of the things that you point out is that we then judge other ethnicities or other cultures that they can't do the same thing when we don't take into consideration that it's a lie in the first place and that systemically it's built so that certain people survive and thrive or in other people are just like scrambling to get to where they need to be.
JUDY: So, you know, one of the things that I think. When we, before we jumped on is how does this, everything that we're doing contribute to a greater cultural conversation. It's this idea that like, if we don't stand up and start speaking up for the injustices that are all around and acknowledging where we've had privilege and where we haven't, then we can't stand up for anybody else.
Who's also a marginalized population because we are, you know, fighting with one another instead, and then being racist against one another. And I think Trevor Noah in his standup, if anybody's watched that he discusses, you know, because he wrote the book, born a crime. So he talks about apartheid in South Africa and he talks about how an outside, um, government was able to come in and like rule over.
In existing country. And one of the ways that they did that was they created infighting between the cultures and the ethnicities that already existed there. So what I love about your book is you kind of eliminate, um, some more of these bigger issues and how in order to be a citizen of humanity that we need to stand up and start using our voice and start parenting ourselves differently and parenting our children differently.
Um, one of the things that I love that you have done with your children is that you started unschooling them. Which, you know, my daughter goes to a Waldorf school, which is an alternative education kind of thing. So every time I have to have a conversation with my parents about it, it becomes an argument because they're like, why, why are you sending your daughter to this school?
Is she actually going to learn anything? Is she actually going to get into college and all these things? So sometimes I engage with them and I say like, well, college is going to be a completely different thing. By the time she gets there. Have you seen the scandals of like all of the people who pay their way to get into the Ivy league university and also, you know, trying to encourage that, like social, emotional learning is so important because if you can develop those core skills of how to manage your emotions and connect to your authentic, authentic truth and whatnot, and be able to express it so you can get your needs met.
And healthy, respectful rate ways and be relational with other people. You're setting yourself up for success in life, in so many things, because everything that we do finding a job, you know, wherever we go, it's relationships, we're building relationships. So can you tell me why you chose unschooling and how that looks for you and, and, you know, with the lens of the tiger parent of like you have to succeed.
IRIS: Yeah. So I wish, I wish that I could say that it was because of, you know, a sense of justice, but a lot of it was because I was, excuse me, I was living in China at the time. Uh, my options were very limited. Um, it was either like private school, local school, which actually wasn't an option because the, you know, the local schools wouldn't take us as foreigners or yeah.
The international schools or homeschooling. And so. I knew I didn't want to go the international school route. And so homeschooling was my option and I wanted to explore ways that I could do it in a way that felt good because I, my tendency is to be a tiger parent. My tendency is to be very controlling.
And so I knew that I didn't want it to, um, Homeschool in such a way that would feed into that. And that would just create so much conflict with my child. And so, as I was beginning to explore different ways of homeschooling, I came across unschooling and the more I read about it, the more I really resonated with it because it was just coming from this, understanding this philosophy in disbelief that children are innately, curious that they are innately, um, Problem solvers and they want to learn.
And if we give them the space to pursue the things that we want to learn, they will find creative ways to do it and hands-on ways. And, um, yeah, it just resonated with me so much and it was very radical at the time. But at that time we were also like, well, we don't have any other options. And we're weird here in China anyways.
Well try it, you know, and I think maybe in some ways, being away from my family, being away from the cultural norms here in America, where we would have a lot of other options, um, made that decision easier for me. Um, but the more I have, um, just, you know, practiced it and dug into it the more, I just totally believe in it.
And it's not because. They are outperforming other kids. I think that is actually like, we're taking that piece out of it. And it's not about comparison. It's not about like, seeing like, Oh, are you hitting those marks? Because that's a very, what we call a schoolish mindset where we come at our children with these arbitrary standards and we expect them to meet those standards or Excel beyond those standards in order for them feel like calm and good about ourselves as parents, but Hmm.
I feel like unschooling is really a practice of trust and of like just watching and observing our children and supporting them in their own process and their own pace. And it does take a lot of faith because these like. It's the letting go of control. Whereas your parenting is all about like, okay, I have control.
I'm going to meet happened. I'm going to guarantee some sort of results. But even those results don't actually guarantee anything so much harm and psychological distress in our kids sometimes. And so unschooling is really about stepping back and. Supporting our kids and they want to be instead of us going ahead of them and dragging them along and finding for them what we think success is.
So in terms of success is really, um, unpacking that for ourselves and allowing our children to define for themselves what type of life they want, what type of success they want and supporting them in achieving their own personal goals in that area. It's remarkable because you know, one of the anecdotes that you share as well is, you know, for anybody who's watching this, if you had to practice piano, like for a bajillion hours a day, like that was me and I hated it.
And so, and when it comes to money comparison to like, you know, how many times I can, my parents said, well, so-and-so is doing this. So-and-so is doing that. Why are you not doing that? Why do you not have like this grade or that recital? Or like, whatever it is. And so. I was a constant comparison and being able to parent the way that you are, and you also add the caveat that like you have to know your child, you have to know where they thrive and how they're going to do best.
Some children would not do well in that environment. Some children would, so to really start to tune in. And one of the things that you really hone in on, in untiring is to connect to your child to genuinely create that trusting relationship. So that involves so much trust and so much faith and so much.
Bravery to break away from the molds and the things that you know, and for anyone who's a parent, when you were in a very stressful situation, which can happen a lot, especially depending on the age at which your child is so often, it's easy to default to the things that, you know, even if you didn't want it.
And I, you know, how many parents I know who said, I thought I would never do this because I hated it when my parents did it. So I thought I would never do it. But then in that moment of stress, you just default back to what, you know, Yes. So a lot of what you're talking about is you share in the beginning of the book, there's tiger parenting, and then there's peaceful parenting.
JUDY: Can you tell me a bit about what the peaceful parenting is? Like, what are the traits or what are the traits of both of them?
IRIS: Okay. Yeah. So when I think of tiger parenting, and maybe this is the sort of the extreme example, but it's this very coercive, very controlling. It's like the parent is the boss. The parent makes all the decisions.
There's a lot of rules. Um, and when I think of peaceful parenting is it's sort of like what you said, theirs is much more relational it's, uh, we don't that there are a lot of rules we don't try to because that's just sort of like a standardized, you know, set, um, rubric. But like you said, our, each child is different and we need to engage with each child differently.
And so peaceful parenting is. Very much leaning on relationship and modeling and care and kindness and those relational, um, ways of connecting that we, we want in any healthy relationship. Right? So it's using those means of connecting and influencing our child, um, instead of using power. So it's sort of like moving away from a power over.
Relationship to a shared power relationship where everybody in the family is given, um, respect is given autonomy, and we learn how to, you know, do this dance of trying to find ways to. Um, be in relationship with one another that is respectful and does help everyone in the relationship with that. And you give amazing tips for people to try, um, to see, you know, you share your examples of what you've done.
JUDY: and you also really dive into the understanding that. It's never too late that, um, because you share where you were, like when you started this journey and the impact and the, um, you know, I feel like we all experienced trauma, whether that's with like a lowercase T or a big T. So you kind of share how you saw the impact of the ways that you were parenting on your two sons and then you share what it is that you did and how your children responded to it.
IRIS: And some of it did take time. And a lot of this is super uncomfortable because if you weren't raised in an environment where unconditional love was a thing where. Affection is a thing. Then it's weird to start to like, do that with your own children, despite how much you love them and care for them. And so it's a process and then you share like where your family is now and how things are working now.
Um, and you know, I mean, even when I left for college, I remember that like I would meet people and they would give you a hug and I'm like, what is happening right now? Why are people touching? And so I started bringing that up. To my own family of origin when I would come back from college visits and whatnot, and they did the same thing.
We're in the beginning. If I gave him a hug, they just stood there. Like, I don't know what's happening. Um, and then after that, It started to become a thing. So like, it became more natural and it got to the point where my mother even reflected, you know, while I was in college, she realized for herself like, wow, I never touched my children.
I never like, you know, was affectionate with them. Um, because I think also people have different personal preferences. Some people just don't like to be touched, like, so that's a thing. So if this process has anyone who's gonna read your book, um, goes through and you experience things that just feel weird and awkward, giving yourself that grace and that compassion to understand like that's okay.
Um, you know, growth is often uncomfortable and checking in with yourself. Um, So you provide a lot of wonderful, you know, exercises and reflections in the book of asking these questions to yourself, with your family dynamic, you know, however it's going to look. Um, and of course, like things also evolve and change over time.
JUDY: There was one thing that I wanted to read at the very beginning, because I think this would be super helpful for a lot of people. Um, you know, you talk about using the analogy of tiger parenting and how we earned these stripes and you know, what. It actually means, um, you said our stripes are the lies we believe so Henry Nguyen.
I think I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, um, is a priest and an author and suggested these stripes are rooted in five lies about our identity. I am what I have our self-worth is tied to our material possessions and our wealth, these outward signs that assure us of our value because we doubt we have any, without them.
Number two, I am what I do. We judge ourselves by our accomplishments. Productivity feeling that we were only valuable when we are useful line number three, I am what other people say or think about me. We see ourselves through the eyes of others and become people-pleasers and chameleons who morphed to become what others want us to be.
We are devastated when we don't gain their approval line. Number four, I am nothing more than my worst moment. We spiral into shame and self-flagellation for our mistakes and become trapped by self hatred, doubt and helplessness. We sabotage ourselves because we don't believe we are worthy of good things.
And number five, I am nothing less than my best moment. This self aggrandizement is rooted in fear. As we refuse to acknowledge our weaknesses and our failures, we buy into the myth of our idealized self and ride on the coattails of our past successes instead of being open to growth and accountability.
So I have a very close friend in Austin where accountability partners for business and work stuff. And so I took a photo of these five lies and I sent it to her and her response was yikes. That's totally you. And I was like, ah,
When I read this, I thought I have to share this with other people, because I think that I didn't, what I love about your book too, is, you know, I've done a lot of research in parenting and conscious parenting and all that kind of stuff. Um, but I don't think I ever brought the lens of being Asian-American to it.
IRIS: Um, and so you verbalize. The thoughts and the feelings that I've had in such a succinct manner. And so I love that because I think so many of us are often grappling with like, what are the words to express how it is that I feel and like what I'm going through or whatnot. So, um, the, I am what I have in the, I am what I do.
Those are very resonant, but I think the other things that other people have asked me to write about and share about are this shame and the self hatred and the doubt, and, um, You know, the people pleasing. So. Obviously shame and all of that is a big topic for us, everyone, regardless of culture or ethnicity, because Brene Brown's talk her TEDTalk.
I think it's the number one, TEDTalk all about it. So let's just like take a moment and acknowledge our shared humanity about that. But specifically when it comes to being Asian American, um, can you talk about these lies and like how it relates to tiger parenting and you know, the stripes essentially that we've earned or have.
IRIS: So I feel like a lot of these are messages that we received, you know, unconsciously it's to sort of like in the culture or in the, the comments that are made to us in the values that we see within our culture of, um, yeah. Of. Of being really concerned about what other people think of, you know, having a certain type of car or, you know, going into a certain type of school or all of these, all these things where we absorb these messages, that, that we only have value if we achieve these three things.
If we are these things and. So I think that totally ties into tiger parenting because tiger parenting is about trying to, um, meet these needs in. Not by being aware of them. And by like giving ourselves unconditional love by, but by trying to actually hit those marks, right? Like, Oh, if my identity is in what I have, then I'm going to have it all.
I'm going to try to achieve all those things and get all the money I can and get all the, you know, the luxury items I can in order to prove that I am worthy. Or if it's what I do, then I have to be the best. The absolute best of what I do. And that's where I find my value, you know, so I think it's very, um, he, for us to are trying to move away from that tiger parenting culture for us to recognize that these are lies.
These are very unhealthy lies that we have to dismantle in order for us to really be free and to live wholeheartedly. Like Brene Brown talks about. Um, so to recognize these lies and to recognize how they show up in our culture so that we can reject them and resist them and say like, okay, I see this as happening, but that's not what I want.
Um, or you're placing the shame on me and I, you know, I'm feeling it, but I'm not going to let it. Define me and I'm not going to spiral into it. I'm going to remind myself. So the whole part of like that section again, is to radically love and accept ourselves. You know, if that's the answer really should, all, all those five lies is to learn to love, radically love and accept ourselves.
And so when we are hearing those messages, when we feel tempted to like internalize some of those views that we remind ourselves again, like. No, that does not define who I am. That is not my identity. My identity is somebody who is loved and worthy and all of that just as I am right now in this moment.
And it takes so much practice because especially if you were raised with, um, the tiger parenting model, making a mistake was not okay. It was not okay to like, be anything less than perfect. And so the lengths to which you would go to, um, try to do that. I mean, you know, I had an eating disorder for almost 15 or over 15 years because I was just trying as hard as I could to control as many elements as I could to.
Live the life that I thought I was supposed to live. And, you know, I never had, I was never a, you know, big kid food was never an issue. It was just the only thing that I felt like I could control in my life. And then. To think about the trajectory that it sent me on. It was really harmful in so many ways.
JUDY: And so, um, you know, just understanding that for ourselves and taking a moment to reflect on how it impacted us. We can start to see that, you know, is that something that I want to create for my child? And I think that you give also really good examples of the questions to ask of, you know, I. Because my daughter also, she's six now.
She's very mature for emotionally. Um, so I CA I have to catch myself a lot of the time because I will, as you called it, like adultism her, and I will, I will have expectations that are not age appropriate for her or that, um, You know, is that a question that I would ask my friends? Like, is that an expectation that I would have of my friends?
If not, then what am I doing? You know, it's still catching myself in those moments of, Oh, I'm still exerting power over her. I'm still, you know, um, having that authoritarian kind of approach and you also delineate the different pretty much like the majority, the main components of how people. A little bit, how people can parent differently.
Um, and one of them is authoritative rather than authoritarian. So, um, I liked that you shared that authoritarian, which is a lot of what I think conscious parenting means toward is actually just authoritative light and it's. Um, so that's really interesting to kind of dive into, you know, And you're not at all advocating permissive parenting, you know, children need healthy boundaries, like all of that kind of stuff.
So what, in one of the sections in your book too, you dive into the different approaches and I think peaceful parenting is a great way to. Take everything that we've learned over the last 50, some odd years and understanding of science of the development of children's brains and you know, where they are developmentally to move into this model where everyone wins.
Um, one of the sections of your book too, is you have yes. And, um, yes, like. Not, but, but like it, yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Cause I like this idea that how can we approach this to that?
IRIS: Mm mm mm. Um, yeah, so that was in a, in a section. I think that was, I was trying to talk about, um, consistency and how as parents, you know, we're sort of told that in order to have our, like, in order to create an environment where kids feel.
Safe and secure that we need to be consistent. Um, which often lends to us being very rigid and like, we have a routine and we don't sway from it. We have these rules and we don't bend. And I think the point of that chapter was really. That all relationships are about bending. You know, if we're stuck in these rigid, you know, very controlled environments that doesn't feel free, it doesn't feel like relationship.
And so when we say no to our kids, when we were like, you know, always limiting them or giving them rules and boundaries, like. How do we feel when people say near to us, there's like a visceral reaction, right? We want to push back, we resent it or whatever. And so there's, um, instead of always saying no, that we can approach our relationship with a yes.
Mentality with the yes. Posture. And one of those was the yes. And, and this is, um, sort of taken from, uh, Like improv comedy, where instead of like, if somebody is introducing a new element or making a suggestion in this sketch, as you're, as you're acting it out, you don't. Stop in the middle and say, well, that doesn't work.
That doesn't make sense. You go with the flow and you incorporate it and you like add your own ideas to it. And, and it's only in that way that this improv can happen as you sort of build on each other. Right. And so it's this idea of like, okay, if some, if your child introduces something into the conversation or wants to do something.
Like, how can you sort of roll with it and add to it and like be playful about it because improv is about play and, and in our relationships with our kids, it should also really incorporate this idea of being playful, of being imaginative of like, Just this conversation, right. This dialogue that happens instead of just saying like, no, and that's the end of it.
Right. Um, so the, yes, if is also like, it also incorporates that idea. It's like this perspective of, um, just being open to new ideas and wanting to make it happen. And what are the. The requirements that needs to take place in order for this to happen. Right. So just instead of this sort of fixed mindset where we're like, no, that won't work like, okay, yes, we can do this.
If we have this and if we can do this and you really have sort of like a problem solving mentality towards it, like this openness at again, it's this, this dialogue. Um, and it's also respectful to yourself because if there's certain boundaries that you have, you can bring to the table, what it is you need, like yes, we can make Play-Doh.
If we keep it in the kitchen, I help clean up afterwards, you know? So it's that idea. I think the last one was, Oh, yes. When, and this is. Sort of like maybe, well, we can't really say yes, but maybe we can play with it in an imaginative way or in, um, like if, if it's maybe not age appropriate right now, then we can sort of imagine when we can say yes and think about it in a future way.
So it's not a fixed. No, but like, you know, when. When COVID is over baby, do this, things like that. So that it's not it's because of the situation or because of other factors. And it's not because we just want to like close the door on that idea. And I think that play is huge. Like it's that sense of curiosity.
JUDY: And so I didn't learn how to play growing up. So sometimes I have a very challenging time when my daughter wants to do imaginative play. I feel terrible. Cause I'm like, why don't I know how to do this, but you are encouraging people to also find the way to play that works. So whether that's also putting on music while you're cooking, you know, doing a funny voice, even when I read that, I'm like, Oh yeah, even just something lighthearted like that can just change the dynamic and the mood.
And you also referred to, you know, COVID and whatnot. And so I think that that's been a really interesting time, too, very much, at least for me. And you know, for you, you've lived in other countries, other Asian countries that, um, for a while we were raising third culture kids. So, um, they are of one nationality, um, and then one ethnicity and then live in another country.
That's like a completely different. From wherever the ethnicity is or whatnot. So being in these collectivist cultures, because I lived in Taiwan and China as well, um, and then seeing how they handle the coronavirus when it first came out and like what it is that they did and then the Western ideal of independence, um, I mean even California alone, the whole state is like all up and down and like with a bunch of different, um, preferences.
JUDY: So I was surprised because I had heard about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and that the triangle, um, you know, the base is your basic needs, food, shelter, safety. And then the top is self-actualization. So consciousness, higher spiritual evolution, whatever it is you were saying that he actually co-opted that and took it from, um, the black, um, Blackfoot nation.
Um, so that the triangle was actually shaped like a TP. Um, and it was. Different in terms of, yes, you self-actualization is important, but that that's like a base need because you need to be able to do that, to be part of the community and that the highest good is what's good for everyone to thrive. So I think that that is so interesting because it really spins this idea of individualistic thinking to understand like, yes, that's of course important, like your personal needs are important, but you have to do it in a way that thinks of the greater dynamic that you're a part of.
IRIS: So whether that's your family or the community or humanity, um, You really need to take stock of that. And so how you're going to show up now is going to impact not just yourself, but everybody else around you. And I think you also explain why permissive parenting can be troubling in that way, because then if you're constantly indulging and your child's needs, then they're not going to have the social skills to be able to adapt when something's hard in their life.
And then if they're constantly just getting instant gratification to fix and feel better, Without thinking of the repercussions for what it means for someone else or whatnot, then it creates this ripple effect. That could be very detrimental. Um, can you talk about, you know, what is it about collectivist culture that maybe we can.
Revamp for the modern age, because like you said, in the book, and that's what I felt as well is I grew up thinking there was a lot of guilt and shame around it. Like, wait, what, you're going to do something because your whole family, like, you know, believes that or like whatever. And so, um, Western culture and.
Eastern culture is often at odds with one another. Um, but it doesn't have to be so polarizing. So can you talk about where you think that we can move towards? Yeah, so, you know, just the stereotype of Western culture is like very individualistic and stereotype. You know, Eastern, Eastern culture is very collected and there are definitely like in those extremes.
Toxic things about, you know, the enmeshment the shame or just hyper individualism, or you don't care about any somebody else. And we can see those extremes playing out in our culture in some way, like, um, and I think what I see or what I strive for is that they don't necessarily have to be intention when we can.
See the value of, you know, self-actualization and autonomy, personal autonomy, and really know being able to live authentically in our individuality, you know, as an unschooler. Yes. And as somebody who grew up in the States, totally. I totally value those, you know, because each person is so uniquely made and, um, And, and especially for those who don't fit into the greater norm, it is so important that we value each person as they are, instead of like how they fit into these boxes that we, that we create.
Right. But then, um, with Asian culture, uh, with these collectivist cultures meeting does also seen such beauty and value in this collective. Some Belial, you know, communal way of being, because that's how we are created to be as human beings. We aren't meant to be. Siloed as individuals, we need each other and we affect each other.
So, so having this very pro-social view of our development, to who we are as people is really important as well. And so how can we marry these two together in ways that are healthy, that can really help promote our wellbeing and a greater social wellbeing. So it, it is like the stance, you know, that we have to do.
Figure it out and, um, play with, you know, but not, I think maybe especially as Asian-Americans or as BI bicultural people, um, we can help, you know, bridge that gap and to take in celebrate these different cultural values and live in a way that is just consistent and aligned with those values where we do.
Like, like what you're doing with your child, you know, really caring for her social, social, emotional health, and getting her freedom to be who she is. And yet, you know, still connected to the greater culture and to the people around her and teaching her how to be in relationship and care for other people.
You know, I think. I think there's definitely a way that we can do it. And we just can't fall into this binary thinking of like projecting Asian culture because of all the toxic things that we experienced through it, or, you know, just leaning too heavily on individualism or whatever. I think there's ways that we can celebrate both, but in this bigger view of like, how are we connected to each other?
JUDY: Yeah. And I think it's all a journey because I think that, um, for the, all the people that I've spoken with there is that moment where you push back and you're like, no, I don't want any part of this. So you go to the other stream and then you start to kind of sift through what is and what isn't. And again, you know, we approach everything with.
As much knowledge as we have in this moment. And so we just keep growing and iterating and evolving and just giving yourself that grace and compassion to, you know, have that playfulness with yourself and seeing like, Oh, okay. So that worked or that didn't work. I mean, even in my own parenting journey, I'm like, I'm surprised that this thing that I thought that I didn't want, actually, I kind of appreciate as you know, like an adult and now as a parent and I might take some of that and then bring it into my own parenting style.
IRIS: Um, And reminding ourselves that it's not about perfection, it's just. Constant progression and practice. It's a constant practice. And going back to what we said at the beginning, that, you know, for some of us, we're going to feel like, well, I might not be Chinese enough here, or I might not be American enough here, but can I find that sense of.
Authenticity of like I'm enough as a human being with all these rich experiences. And how can I show up in a way that illuminates that for other people as well, and gives them permission to embark on their own journey. And I've always said, you know, I used to teach a lot of yoga, but that the more that you shine in your light, the more you help illuminated.
The path that someone else can take and that, you know, it gives them permission to go ahead and live. However it is that they want to live in. We all just want to live, like with that sense of feeling free, to be who we are, and then fully accepted for who we are and how loving that is. And, you know, one of the things that you really encourage in your book is one of the ways to heal from our own tiger parenting.
JUDY: And what we've experienced is to have those authentic, loving relationships. In our own lives now. And you know, for me on my personal journey, um, I said recently, I'm like, I am in my forties now. And it's just now getting to a point where I'm allowing in like, you know, um, really healthy relationships, uh, because for a very long time, because of that sense of unworthiness, I would push it away or I would self-sabotage or I would be attracted to the wrong experiences and relationships, um, to kind of prove whatever it is that I thought.
What's going on in my head. Um, so, you know, you do talk about saving face and I love that because this whole thing is about fuck saving face. So as we're closing the interview, I wanted to ask you, you know, Is there something about saving face that you want to shine a light on and share a truth about or challenge, um, you have a whole chapter about it, which is fantastic, but is there something specific that you want to share that you'd love people to know about?
IRIS: I would say saving face is really coming from a place where you don't feel like you're worthy feel there isn't that self-love and there isn't that self-acceptance. It's it's the fear that you're, you can lose something, right? The whole thing about losing face saving face is the fear of losing face. And so I think where we, um, have that security and, you know, continue to work on that, that self-love and that radical self acceptance, we aren't as afraid to lose face because.
Those things. Don't define who we are, you know, other people's other people's opinions of us doesn't, you know, make us fall apart. Um, and of course that, you know, that continues to be a journey. But I think that this, this drive to save face really comes from a lack of self-acceptance and a lack of self love.
One thing that I did right at the end is because we are in a faceless leading culture, um, that we can find ways to give face in ways that are authentic and loving and honoring, you know, like with our parents, we don't have to. Purposely, you know, do things to make them feel like they're losing face. We can do things to honor them and to give them face, but in ways that are genuine and loving, you know?
Um, and also that we can give face to those who have less power than we do usually. It makes sense to give these to those who can like help give us face, you know, like our boss or our elder or whatever, but really how can we learn to give space to those who have less power than us to our children or to those who, um, work under us or whatever it is.
I think in that way, it's even more powerful is like sharing our power. Honoring and lifting up those who are traditionally seen as less than, you know, how powerful is that for us to give base to, to those people? So, yeah, those are just some of my thoughts. I love that. I love because I don't think we ever think about, I mean, we.
Often think about saving face, but the giving face part, um, you know, if you're coming from that scarcity mindset, right. It's really hard to think about giving. Um, it's hard to think about like legacy work or, um, community building, because you're just trying to like survive and hold on to whatever it is that you have.
So the more that we can encourage that there is an abundance of energy and resources and connections, then the more that we can continue this idea of giving face, like how can we. Speak up for underrepresented populations. How can we elevate everyone? Because I love that quote that a rising tide lifts all boats.
So how can we work together to create that sense of, um, success and thriving in a new, thank you so, so much for your time. This has been remarkable. Um, if people want to follow more about you, where can they find you? Yes. So I have a blog. You can find me on anti-green dot com and I also have a Facebook page and an ID account, and you can just put four and tightly.
So yeah, four of you. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Yeah, you too. Thank you for having me, Judy.
