EPISODE 02: HALF BLACK HALF ASIAN WITH SUSAN EPPS
Susan Epps is a self-proclaimed goofy nerd, educator and mom of two who always finds a way to infuse humor and levity when tackling life's toughest issues. As a veteran independent school senior administrator, Equity & Inclusion consultant, affinity group facilitator, public speaker and writer, Susan brings her personal story and unique voice to every stage she occupies.
Visit her IG @simplysusanxo, connect with her for interviews & bookings at simplysusanlivingoutloud@gmail.com, or visit her YouTube Channel.
SHOW NOTES
Here are a few of the things we talk about if you’d like to dive in further:
Trevor Noah’s book, Born a Crime
Awkwafina’s movie, The Farewell
Jenny' Lawson’s book, Furiously Happy
Susan Epp’s feature in USA Today: COVID No Makeup Trend
LIKE WHAT YOU HEARD?
Help us get more content like this out into the world! Join us on Patreon today to support our podcast or make a donation here.
FULL TRANSCIPTS
JUDY: Welcome back to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we explore all things about mental and emotional health, break taboos, and really explore what it means to be Asian American in the world today, and how we can further along this conversation as cultural dialogue and just. Create a sense of place and being seen and being heard.
So I'm really excited to have Susan Epps here today. A little background, we have a fun connection. So one of my dearest friends, Denise is Susan's cousin. And I remember hearing Denise throughout the years of our friendship, talk about her cousin who is half black, half Asian. And I was like, Oh, that's such a fascinating mix.
Just knowing when I was growing up in LA and thinking about all the different challenges. Cause I lived through the riots and all the different cultural fighting. So I'm here today because she was recently featured in USA today, which we can talk about that because it was all about not working, makeup after the pandemic and really embracing a new aesthetic for women, which I think is fabulous.
I remember going to an OB GYN and I'm talking about how wearing thongs is such a patriarchal thing. Cause it's, so not good for women's body parts and all this kind of stuff. So fascinating when we move the conversation forward of embracing beauty. So that's one thing we could talk about. She's also been a private school administrator and educator, and really moving equity and inclusion.
That conversation along for the last 20 years. So I'm just going to turn it over to Susan really quickly, just for you to explain a little bit of your story and your background, and even how you culturally identify.
MULTIRACIAL IDENTITY: HALF ASIAN HALF BLACK? NO….
SUSAN: Absolutely. So I love this question because I feel at different points in my life, the answer has been very different for sure.
What if I compare Susan in middle school, Susan in high school, Susan in college, grad school, and then as a parent and mom, it's shifted slightly, but something that has always been a constant is that I have identified myself as multiracial, but because all of my identifiers are of color and categorized as minority.
And I feel I don't have the same options and choices nor do I want to choose to say I just choose to be Asian or I just choose to be African American. I actually identify fully. I used to say I'm half black or African-American and I'm half Chinese. But I learned as I, as I grew up, that's not how I feel.
100% ASIAN AMERICAN AND 100% AFRICAN AMERICAN
I feel a hundred percent. I feel like I'm double instead of half. And so I feel like I am like doubly triply quadruply blessed and that I have these two amazing identifiers. So I definitely identify as Asian and black, a hundred percent. So, quickly, my family background is it's so unique.
INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES
My father was in the military. He was in the Navy. He was stationed in Taiwan, met this hot chick. Cool. And amazing. That would be my mother. And they got married and that's how I came to be. And my brother came to be, so yes. Very unique story. I'm sure you who never heard of that one before? Well, the military story.
RACISM IN ASIAN FAMILY
JUDY: Yes, but I need to ask you because growing up, as an Asian, very traditionally raised. My parents were racist for the most part. I think that that was very standard for Chinese families. So how did that relationship unfold? Did your mom get a lot of flack? What happened?
SUSAN: That would be an affirmative. I wasn't there when they met piece things together by what? And my mom and dad are divorced and been long divorced for a long time, for decades. And so for me, I've tried to piece together from my aunts, from my cousins, from anybody that knew them, like, what was this like?
My dad actually spoke Chinese, he was a linguist. And according to him, he said he knew Chinese and Russian fluently, which means he was probably finding a Russian or Chinese restaurant who knows what that really means. Fluency? I don't know.
But what's interesting is that he said that they met at a party, instant attraction and connection and they fell in love. And what I do know. From my own life, but also from what I've gathered from my relatives, is that my grandfather was not having it. My grandfather was just like, Oh, hell to the no.
I remember we lived with my grandmother and grandfather and my grandfather was a four-star general for Chiang Kai Shek. He wasn't a world citizen. He had his beliefs, he had his values, it probably didn't mesh with him having Negro, African American grandchildren. It was very, very tough for him.
And so for me, I remember being young and being with my grandmother and grandfather, and I don't remember having any kind of warmth or connection to my grandfather, however, we lived in the home with them. My grandmother. Oh, it was amazing. I mean, she adored loved me, fed me constantly. She was a little chubby.
I was a little chubby. It was fine, but yeah, it was amazing. And I remembered that, but what's interesting is that we lived there until I was about four and a half, almost five. And during that time we went to Chinese schools, which is interesting. I went to preschool, my brother went to elementary school, my brother and I look differently.
SKIN COLOR AND HAIR DETERMINE PERCEPTION IN ASIA
And that was a huge factor in how we were received by an Asian family, we were Chinese living in Taiwan, which all relatives will make sure they clarify living there by the Taiwanese and by our Chinese family. And then coming over to America. Yeah, I am very like, I'm pretty fair compared to my brother and my brother has brown skin.
However, my brother has straight hair. He looks what other people have said that he looks a hundred percent Asian with a really, really intensely good tan so that’s kind of him. And for me, my relatives who are black they're just like, well, you're the more kind of black as far as looking one because I had the big fat curly hair, and I looked a little differently and I looked more multiracial than he did.
He looked monoracial Asian with again, a wicked tan. And then for me, it was interesting living in Taiwan when I was little. Skin color is a thing. And so for me, I found that I, even though my features might be more mixed race/ multiracial or more African-American the skin color was what it was. And so I tended to be somebody who was more accepted.
And I think that was because I was so fair and it was a skin color thing. So that was the beginning of life. It was like, it was colorism within our own family and colorism, you know, in the Far East. So that is the beginning.
HALF ASIAN HALF WHITE
JUDY: Yeah. it's one of the reasons that I moved away from Asia as well, because my daughter is half Asian, half white.
And so she's very fair-skinned and with the big eyes and like all that kind of stuff. So the first thing that anybody ever says when they see her in Asia is. "Oh, she's so beautiful."
I had people stopping to try to take her picture, like random things.
So I'm like, we're not doing this. This is not, especially as a parent who sends my daughter to a Waldorf school where they don't have any commercialization on any of their clothing. It's very neutral and focused on the inward development. That's very, very interesting.
TAIWANESE MOTHER, AFRICAN-AMERICAN FATHER: DIVORCE
Do you ever talk to your mom what their relationship was like when they got together?
SUSAN: Neither my mother or my father have ever been willing to talk to me about it. They're like that’s none of your business. And I really started asking them probably in high school and then in college.
And I was like, I'm an adult. Now I'm an adult with children. Private secretive. Interesting about it.I don't know if they're afraid that if we open it, all these things will come out. I have no idea. So I don't know what their life was like, I just know other relatives.
JUDY: Hm. And so your parents also got divorced, which is also non-traditional. And what happened then? How old were you or how old were they?
AFRICAN AMERICAN FATHER: FULL CUSTODY OF CHILDREN RARE
SUSAN: I was four and a half and my brother was, I guess nine-ish and what's interesting is that they got divorced here in this country and this is 1976 ish, maybe.
And I'm sorry, 1976, not too many black men, not too many men even get custody of children. My African American dad got custody of us, full custody of us. I think that was very, I don't even know the story and the ins and outs of what that is about, but I do know that is rare.
ASSIMILATION VS OWNING YOUR IDENTITY
JUDY: Has your dad ever talked to you about what it's like for him when you were growing up, walking around with biracial children and what that feeling was like for him?
SUSAN: So he, I remember my recollection of when, you know, I started to first have memories and ideas or people of my whole family, but definitely him saying we're all the same. We're all equal through rose colored glasses, colorblind kind of thing. I think that was very, very common for the seventies and eighties.
AFRICAN AMERICAN IDENTITY
So it wasn't until I had gotten a little bit older that he really got super Afro-centric and started wearing dashikis. And he was like back to Africa and all this stuff. And I'm just like, what is happening right now? You said we were all like, it doesn't matter, you know? So, and then he kind of switched his tune, I think because decades and times shifted, but also his own ideology and identity shifted, it wasn't always about assimilating, which I think both of them probably had in common, like let's just be American, the American dream, but I think his identity shifted and that definitely impacted, I think how I saw the world and saw myself. That was very interesting. Well, for example, when I first came to this country, we lived in Washington, DC.
ESL STUDENT
My dad was a military officer. He was in the Navy and He decided he didn't want me to go to the military, like to a military DoD type of school. So I went to a school in Southeast Washington, DC, which is historically black. And I went to an all black elementary school. I walked in, I couldn't speak English.
People were just like, I think they forgot to teach me English. So I didn't speak any English. I was an ESL student and I went to the school and the first thing kids said, when I walked in, they took their fingers and they pulled their eyes and they said Chinese.
MICROAGGRESIOONS AGAINST ASIANS
Also,I remember that, and there were so many like microaggressions of micro insults that were very Asian specific. They weren't black specific because everybody was African American. So what made me different was being the Asian girl who couldn't speak English. That was my entree into America.
Let me tell ya. The first day of school I was on the bus and didn't get off the bus because my bus got off on a military base. All the houses look alike. I didn't speak English either. So legend has it. I was at the police station or the military police station and my neighbor who we called aunt Kathleen got a call or somebody got a call.
Somebody had to get this little Chinese girl home. So anyway, so my life was very much. I looked and treated very much like Mulan. So that is, that was my entree into American life.
GROWING UP IN THE SOUTH
Growing up in the South
JUDY: That's really fascinating too, that your father started identifying with being more of that black identity, because just like you said, Your family clarified their Chinese heritage, but living in Taiwan like that was when I grew up.
I thought my family was Taiwanese. I had no idea. No, they were not Taiwanese. They fled China. I went to Taiwan. And then later when I was in college, my parents decided to identify with their Chinese heritage or identity, Chinese descent. And I'm like, what is happening right now? It's like all of a sudden you're deciding to choose a different race.
I didn't understand that. How did you navigate that? And we're going to talk about how you also grew up in the deep South, too, so.
SUSAN: How did I navigate him? Well, here's the thing when he's always been black identified, cause he walks around like a black man and he grew up in Dolomite, Alabama, which is very Southern, but in a very segregated South.
ALWAYS BEEN AFRICAN AMERICAN
And so he's always been black, but I think because my dad, through the military and because quite frankly, I think he's very, very smart. He gets, he is incredibly, he's a smart, he's a charismatic. He's just a bright kind of scrappy person. He knew, even though he might not have had private school educations.
He grew up in the segregated South in the forties and fifties and sixties. So that's a different era where he didn't have access to different things, but my dad totally tore up, like any kind of opportunity. He's like, Ooh, let's seize that let's seize that and make it bigger. So he always knew he was black.
However, he always knew he lived in the white universe. And to me, my take on it is that when he was in the military people thought this is somebody who's really bright. This person has potential. He can go somewhere. And so I think that he took advantage of mentors. He took advantage of programming.
He got his education and graduate degree all with through the military. And he actually went into the Navy enlisted and they promoted him to be an officer and that doesn't happen to much, you either stay enlisted, or you go in as an officer, but he really elevated himself. But I think my dad, he had lots of white friends.
He also had African American friends too, but in that time to have this, the amount and the close connection with white friends and white families, it wasn't as common as it is now. And so for him, he knew how to navigate that world. But I think that as we got older, to me, what I know with my adult eyes, and now as a parent looking at him, I think he wanted to make sure that he established The Afro-centric initiative at all, if you will, because he knew that he had two children born, who are going to go out into the universe and maybe the beginning of life, he was just like, everybody's great.
And he's like that's not the case. I need to prepare these children. They're going to walk through the world as definitely mixed children of color, not like him as somebody who's, mono-racial black and black identified, but he was like, I need to prepare them. And so I think he shifted and got a little stronger, I think.
If I had to guess, it was probably out of love, parental love and wanting to prepare his children for hardship. That is my take. Am I an eternal optimist? Yes. Can I can pump, I'm probably idealizing some of my childhood too, and trust me a lot of it was crappy, but that part of it I think was, was pretty good.
But as time wore on you could even see by the things that my dad chose to involve himself. And even the way that he dressed, I was like, Ooh, Africa is here. Oh here. So interesting or like say anything to you raising you, you know.
INTERNAL EVOLUTION OF RACE
JUDY: Did your father ever impart any wisdom or caution or anything like that? Given whatever his experiences were?
SUSAN: Well, what's interesting is that I think that a lot of what is out there in the universe, as far as, people with other mixed race children and people just in general was either black and white or black and white. So I think he put in a territory kind of out there on his own.
So what my father imparted to me. Wow. Cause I remember when I was younger and these memories obviously aren't as fresh, but I mean, he can't not acknowledge that. My brother and I were very Asian, and that we spoke Chinese fluently, went to Chinese schools. We have this in my brother, especially; it looks incredibly to me, Asian.
I think I look like I'm multiracial and you can tell what I am, but is interesting is that when I was younger, I think it was more, kind of what I grappled with on a day-to-day basis was my Asian identifier, because that's what came out of my mouth. And also when I was little, I looked a little bit different.
I was just looking at a picture on my wall downstairs and my hair was straighter. And I, I just felt like you kind of I can change ethnicities as you get older, especially for mixed race. So I felt like a lot of it was just like Asian versus American.
Hmm, let me just help you usher you into this American world. So it's like the Asian American, those are the identity that were kind of fighting with each other. Then I got older. It was more like Asian and black, very different things. And then I got older. It was like of color versus whiteness.
BIPOC - NOT ALL SIMILAR
JUDY: It kind of changes. Interesting. So one of the things that I think is fascinating too, before we jumped on, we talked about the term people of color and also you going into different programs. And schooling in predominantly black communities and how you were perceived by society there.
So can you talk a bit about your journey through education and your experiences there as you started to grow into your teen and young twenties?
SUSAN: Yes. And I would like to also comment on the fact that I cannot stand the term BIPOC, and I think that people have definitely distorted and totally is crapafied a word? I don't think it is.
They totally distorted and made gross and yucky and boogery the term people of color.
JUDY: Can you talk a little bit about why you don't like BIPOC? Cause we were saying that growing up, I was recognized as a minority. So that is how I identified. So when all of this current cultural conversation came in and people were saying people of color and whatnot, I was like, wait, wait, what?
I don't understand. Where, what, where am I supposed to go? How do I identify someone else? I don't know. Even I have a very close Latina friend and she's like, I don't even think I identify as a person of color. I'm not sure.
SUSAN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, for me, and as an educator and as somebody who's trying to teach children, K through 12, how to navigate like identity and racial identity.
So me personally, I cannot stand the word BIPOC when it came out. I was just like, are you kidding? Because honestly, the experiences of the B's, the I's, the P's and the O's and the C's are not at all similar. And number two, I feel like there is a lot of tension and history among different groups of "people of color" that are identified as BIPOC, where there could be a huge transgression, a huge insult, you know, a lot of harm that has been done within this group.
Like, for example, I mean, I don't need to give an example. It's pretty obvious, but you know, I've been in BIPOC affinity groups and I have experienced harm and it's just been very tough. I remember it's so funny. I was in a meeting one day and we were talking about this is years ago, but we were talking about affirmative action.
And it was interesting. And this is one of my Asian. Not only was she Asian, she was also Chinese. So she was like super duper my sister, you know what I mean? And to somebody who was my friend, my colleague, and we were talking about it and she was talking about an article that she was reading about affirmative action.
And she's just like, you know, it really makes me sad. And she was talking about black people are stealing seats and Asian people having their quotas because, our scores and our grades, she was giving me the little elbow to the side. Like you agree with me.
And I was like, are you crazy? Because you're actually talking about my people. You know, too in saying that black people don't deserve and she wasn't talking about whether or not the system was equitable, whether access is equitable, never talked about systemic or institutional racism. So I'm just like, Whoa.
And to me to be here and to have harmony in a group that's supposed to be a safe place. So BIPOC is very, very, very tough term for me because I feel like we're not a united group. We're not a united group and we have a very different history. So every BIPOC you know event I've been to, or affinity group has been fraught and uncomfortable and not a safe place.
So I don't love that. I don't love that. And I also feel like a lot of people don't understand. What the BIPOC means. And a lot of people are saying, well, my, my last name is Rodriguez, even though my 23 and me says, I'm like 99%, Anglo-Saxon white European, I'm a WASP.
And I said, you know, there's a difference between ethnicity and racial identity and I think it all gets murky with the BIPOC, I don't love that. As far as of color it kind of leads to the question you originally asked me, which was how did you identify growing up? When I grew up of color meant black people, people of color and black people growing up for sure.
I went to a black Southern church, which is interesting. And so, and for me, my life was different when I was with my, my mom, in California, my existence was very Asian when I was in the South, with my dad and my other mom who is, I guess technically and officially my stepmother, but she raised me since I was eight.
They're both, mono-racial black people, so different existences, but I will say that of color to me always growing up or it's just not black people. And it originated to talk about black people. And so as we've gone on, though, people have just, I don't know who the people are. I don't know who the they are, everybody together, but lump everybody together.
And now I feel like I don't like that term because it originally started out being, a better term than colored or anything that begins with the letter "n". So as far as the better, however, comma to include everybody underneath the umbrella, so much confusion has happened. You have people who are, white, but middle Eastern identified.
You have some people who are Hispanic, white, and Hispanic and not Latin X identified saying like, am I of color? I am a color. And then some people choose to choose it at times and other, and that's not cool. It's not accurate. It doesn't feel authentic, and it just feels kind of gross. I don't like either one of those terms today in 2021 February, I changed my mind a lot.
You know what I mean? Like as I grow and I get to know people, I hear the perspectives, things can definitely color who I am, but right now I just don't like those terms.
IS THERE A BETTER TERM FOR BIPOC?
JUDY: Do you have a suggestion for a better term? That's what I was grappling with before and also, why do we even have to figure out some identifier because all of this is just continually creating separation from anything else, but I think it's just such a charged space and it's hard.
SUSAN: I'm wondering if it's not people who are. You know, nonwhite doing it. I'm like who is doing this white people saying that I need you to do this. I don't know. So I'm not really sure where it originated for me. I mean, with exceptions, for sure.
But for the most part, I think people should be able to self identify and then just that's who they are and they don't have to be lumped in different groupings. I think you should. So I think being proud of where you are and who you're from. That's a beautiful thing. When people, if there are preconceived and preformed categories, life isn't this instance, you know what I mean?
You shouldn't have to tick boxes, feels very bossy. And so I personally don't love that and I wish people could, and my exception is unless you're stupid, you know what I mean? You should not be able to self identify because there are a couple, most people are smart and people are nice and people are good but some people who are stupid.
And those stupid people will be like, well, technically I'm like Irish, English and Scottish American, but I majored, you know, I went to Wesleyan or I went to majored in, Native American indigenous studies. So I feel like I want to self identify as that. I was like, Sit your butt down.
So for those like 0.01% or more who are stupid, I don't think they should be able to self identify and then ruin the safe spaces and also take on the identities of people who that is the way they walk through life. And that is who their heritage is.
SAFE SPACES
JUDY: I think that your conversation about safe spaces is so important.
And so much of I've mentioned this before in a previous episode, but if you listen to Trevor Noah's book, Born a Crime, he talks about how did this outside white culture come in and dominate South Africa it's because they created infighting amongst the groups who were already there, like the native populations.
So I think that so much of all of this is if you are afraid and you're not strong in who you are, it makes it really hard to stand up to anybody else. And in the world today, there's so many people who could use advocates and so many groups that could use support. I'm not in groups, just humanity, just humanity in general could use a lot of help and support.
But I think the goal is to create a better understanding of ourselves so that we can then speak up and feel proud and feel like inclusive, genuinely inclusive, because if we're rejecting any parts of ourselves and it makes it really hard to not reject somebody else, like, however we're showing up in the world, it's often a reflection of ourselves, but for you, you had mentioned, you went to Wellesley, Spelman, Georgetown, all of that.
And then the experience that you had when you went to Cal for grad school. But what was that like going to those universities and starting to really, the other part of this question is just that In all the people that I've spoken to, a lot of the times, this racial or cultural identity doesn't really become a prominent part of your awareness or your psyche until you're older.
And part of it is because when you're young, you're just trying to figure out life in general, but also it seems to be something of a privilege to be able to take a little bit of time and space to reflect upon who you are and how you want to show up. If you're trying to survive day to day, it makes it hard to think about any other topics.
But can you just talk a bit about that, about your experience.
HER OWN IDENTITY
SUSAN: So I will say that my racial identity it's, it's amazing and how actually I was perceived by the universe wherever my universe happened to take place I would say the first time I really thought about it was when I, or I noticed it.
It was a thing, a huge thing, like beyond my Chinese people, never cussed, terrible racial thing that happened in kindergarten. When I was in middle school, we moved, my family moved from Okinawa, Japan. To FloriBama, which is on the border of Florida and Alabama. It is Pensacola, Florida. It's a big Naval hub.
And so we moved to Pensacola. And what is fascinating is that when I came to school, I was everybody's like, Oh, somebody's really exotic.That word, argh? I mean the time or two in my life, but somebody really exotic joined our school. And everybody in.....to me, what it felt like was everybody was black and white.
I didn't see Asian people, you know, I didn't notice cause a very black, white, Southern space and it was very not multiracial, just very mono racial, black and white. And I was like, woo. And then it was interesting. I heard a couple of days after being there that somebody, a Japanese person, joined the school. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I totally want to meet her. And two of my friends were like that's you.
They said, but the principal said, or the teacher said that you were from Okinawa. I was like, yeah, I'm a military brat. I'm a military junior. You know what I mean? And I was like, not at all, but what's interesting is that because I wasn't black or white and I definitely look different. I don't look monoracial black and white people just put me into a group. And the group they put me in was white.
So all my friends were white. You know, in school. And it was very segregated, very segregated. So I ate with white people at the lunch table. When I got, when I was in classes, I was in classes with all white people.
When I was in PE, the girls would get together. And as the white girls dressing together in the black girls dressing together, I was never, ever part of Black, the black population in middle school. As I went to high school and I went to a high school, it was called Booker T Washington high school. Interesting.
It was majority white as far as the population and I was in classes with all white people. Hmm. I was, I was in the AP classes and I was in accelerated classes and I was, however, there were two other Asian people, I think, in the school, at least that I knew of one was Jean Lin, a good friend of mine.
And one was he, his name was Chris Cho, and he and I were both multiracial. He was white and Asian. I was black and Asian. Jean was monoracial. I believe Chinese. It's interesting. So in. High school. I don't think people like racially categorize me. They just, I was just that other person. And then it's so funny when I graduated Chris and I won the math award.
Math is not my forte. I was like that is some racist stuff right there. And it's so funny when they, when they said our names, I heard a white guy say it would be them. And I was like, dude, I'm better in humanities. I don't know why I got this award. You know what I mean? I also got the theater drama awards.
So I look at that balances. But I was like, I got it. I'm good at math. Like, you know what I mean? But I'm not like, that's not my thing. It's not the math award. So that was kind of just high school and below. But when I got to college, First day at Wellesley, a woman was handing out flyers and she's like meeting at seven o'clock on Thursday.
I was like, okay. And I opened it up and it was for the Asian affinity group, the Asian group on campus. And I was like, why are you giving this to me? I'm like, I'm so confused. What is happening right now? You know what I mean? What is this? And she didn't even flinch. She was like, she looked at me and she's like, here you go.
You got to come to our meeting. Seven o'clock or whatever. And I was just like, what's happening, you know? And so immediately I was just identified as Asian, but then again, I also chose and I elected to be part of the black group up there too. So that was the beginning of me being able to do more than one.
And let me tell you a funny story. I remember coming home after my first year. Not after, during my first year of college. I think it was Christmas, Christmas, new year's and I, we went to a family friend's house. I want to say for a new year celebration and a whole bunch of my friends from high school were there.
So I walk in and one of my best friend's houses and then my parents walk in right behind me. And I don't think people realize those are my parents. And so it's interesting. People are like, how are you? How's college? You know, I'm coming from Wellesley, which nobody recognizes, really people like I'm coming from Auburn, I'm coming from Florida State, you know, that wasn't the hot place to go.
And so anyway, I came in and after like a couple hours. Not gonna lie. All of us were kind of sloshed. Yes. I know. I wasn't 21, whatever. My parents were very permissive in that way. And so we'd all been a little bit drinking. And then two, two girls who I've known, I've known since middle school said, who are those nice black people you came in, but they are so nice Susan, good time talking to them.
I was like, those are my parents. And they're just like what? I was like, those are my parents. I was like, I don't understand. You're just like, wait a minute. That is so cool. I did not know that black people could adopt white people. I'm like stop. I said, well, I think that is possible. However, comma, I am not white.
And there, I was like, you've known me since seventh grade. What makes you think? And this is what they said. Well, I know you looked a little different and you act it's a little different, but we just thought you were a special kind of white, like Italian or Mediterranean or something. They're like, I don't understand.
And I was, I had no words. I can't, I can't do this. You know? You know, what do you say? What do you say to that? So that was, you know, through, and then let me tell you, I discovered my blackness for sure when I was at Wellesley, because I decided that one of my majors I wanted to be it was equivalent of black studies.
It might've been Africano Studies, something, it was black studies. And I remember my parents being like you can't major in black. That's not a thing, you can't major in it. And they were like so upset. They were like, you need to major in something, be real concrete, like be pre-med or pre-law. And they were like no that's no, but anyway, I was very, very Afro-centric.
Then my junior year came and my parents really pushed me to apply to the 12 college exchange program to go to Spelman for a semester. And I was like, I don't want to go to historically black college university. I don't want to go to a black school. I haven't really connected to being like to black people in that way.
HALF ASIAN STICKS OUT
Cause they're people I'm related to and they're like, Oh God, we have failed. I got it. And then when I went there, it was an amazing experience. I turned back into the Asian girl because in an all black universe, what sticks out and what's different about me is being Asian. So it was me and there was another, a woman there.
Her name is Kumiko. Oh, she was dating Ennis Cosby, Bill Cosby, his son at the time. But anyway, there was, and there was me and we were, people were like, Oh my gosh, there's another Asian girl here too. And I was like, wow, I am just Asian now. But my blackness has been completely erased. At an all black school.
So that was the existence, I was Asian again. So I, so people put me in categories of, are you Asian, are you black or are you multiracial? I don't know, depending on the era, depending on, but I became that again, which was fascinating. So then as I got older, I went to grad school. Yeah things ebbed and flowed, but I always, one thing that's been consistent with me that I've always been black because America deems me black.
ALWAYS BLACK
Like I know it's not the Jim Crow era, nor was it throughout my lifetime. However, People just they said, no matter what, you're black, you can be black and, but you're always black and in a way that was comforting in good, but a way that was kind of jacked up too, you know what I mean?
Like the decision wasn't mine, if it were, I think I would have chosen it anyway, because that's how I walked through the world in lots of ways. But yeah, so it's been very, very interesting. So it's ebbed and flowed as far as how really the universe sees me more than how I see myself.
But as n awakened, you know, kind of in touch adult. For sure. I identify myself as black and Asian. However, to be completely honest with you, like, I don't think you should, it's not like the race Olympics or anything you shouldn't like say I'm X percent or the gold medal goes to this race, but honestly, my experiences and my heart are much more black identified because they have to be in this country.
I think, listen, by myself it'd be different, but here it kind of, it has to be, you know what I mean? I haven't been given that choice as much. And I remember, I was a lot younger. I remember Hally Berry was like on the cover of essence or Ebony and I read this article and she was like, I know my mom's white, but I totally identify as black.
And I was like, how could she not identify as a whole another part of her heritage? And then I remembered. Thinking about that again, I think it's very different to be black and white because a lot of people want to empower and give voice to how they walk through the world. But also what is most marginalized, but when you are two things that are marginalized, but to different degrees, it is very different, very different.
It is very different anyway. Yeah. That's who I am. It's very, you know, murky and muddy at times, and messy, but that is kind of how my racial identity formed. And now that I am a mom, I'm probably not, my memory is shot to hell because I'm a mom and I'm probably like more practical than intellectual or theoretical.
I'm just like, you know what really care, like, what people like, I'm definitely black. I'm definitely Asian. I'm a woman of color. I'm kind of like embracing it all without being so like head space about it,
MIXED RACE CHILDREN
JUDY: Your children are mixed race as well. So how has it been raising them?
SUSAN: That is a great question because here's the interesting thing.
They look different from one another. And one looks very much like me, the other one does not. And I feel like, as a mom, you see what you want to see, but it's interesting to kind of see how the world embraces them and responds to them.
My youngest looks Asian, like Denise, she's more like my sister, then my cousin, I was just like, Oh my gosh, I had a completely Asian child. Like, how did that happen? Right. So he came out super Asian. He looks more Asian than I do. And I mean, we haven't done a DNA test, but as far as what his grandparents, he has one mono-racial Asian parent who looks just like her.
Like Carter's just like him. So he's like Asian, my oldest child looks white. So that is fascinating. That's how the world kind of sees him. Yeah, I was just, it's so funny. I remember after I gave birth to him, the nurse was like, hey, do you want us to put the baby in the nursery? I was like, no, because I don't think they'll give him back.
I'm not sure. They'll like pair me. I know we had these little wrist things on, but I was like, so nervous. Having those two children who look like that, but my identity and our identity is such it's interesting. They're still young enough. So I haven't had a really, really do it do it, but I will say, when my kids were little in strollers and I'm going to the park with the other moms, you know, people, all of a sudden I was the nanny for my children because I had these children who did not look as ethnic as I did,
Nor did my first one definitely didn't look of color. And so I was just like, that was fascinating to have, you know, my identifier. Definitely of color of being black, but being Asian and then having people actually, I think they assumed that I was Latina and a nanny. It's so interesting because I've had people come up to me and they be speaking like really not great Spanish with me asking me a question.
I was like I said, I haven't taken Spanish for many years since I was in school and I don't speak it, but if you could just speak English, I could probably help you. It was very interesting.
ASIAN AMERICAN TV SHOWS
JUDY: I wanted to talk about the House of Ho well, there's a couple of shows that are happening right now, contemporary culture.
And when I talk to people who are of any Asian descent watching these shows, House of Ho and then Bling Empire, I think that it's, the word that comes up a lot is triggering.
SUSAN: I started watching two days ago, I've only watched maybe three or four episodes and all of my friends are just like, it is the best thing. I can't stop watching it. I'm so glad there's an Asian voice, because there's been so few, basically there's only been like Mulan or Joy Luck Club and Crazy Rich Asians. And Americans, black and white Americans and say, that is what I know of and some saw, Fresh Off the Boat.
JUDY: So. There was A Better Luck Tomorrow about the crazy competitive edge of that. Yeah. You know, the stereotypes.
SUSAN: Like tiger mom and that's it. And so there's like, this is really, this is fascinating. It's so funny. It's so funny. So I'm just like, you know what, I need funny in my life.
I'm going to watch the House of Ho and then watching Bling Empire. 48 hours ago. I watch it. I'm like slightly depressed tears in my eyes, triggered, I'm having like these Ratatouille moments, but they're not, it's not like you eat, you know, the Ratatouille and then you go back to a good childhood memory.
It's like they're sitting there. The matriarch of the family gives her firstborn son. Like, here you go, you love Asian food here it is in Tupperware. I'm having that, that memory of not getting it. You know what I mean? I'm very much relating to Judy and what's interesting is that, yes, I am black identified and Asian.
When I watch House of Ho, I'm a hundred percent Chinese, like that is all my Chinese existence and memories. And it's very strong because I am not Americanized Chinese. You know what I mean? I was an ESL student. I moved here. My mom's an immigrant. You know, my family is new to this country, my Asian side of the family, hella new to this country.
So I'm watching it. I'm like having, like my stomach's hurting a little bit. I'm a little bit of holding back tears in some scenes because I have been there. I have felt that I still feel that I have PTSD and I probably need more therapy. Like that's what I'm thinking, because everybody's like, it's so light and it's a great escape.
SEXISM IN ASIAN UPBRINING
I was like, the hell are y'all watching. You know what I mean? And what skin are you in? Because I'm watching it and I'm figured out tremendously and realizing like how incredibly sexist my upbringing was incredibly sexist and it was incredibly, just hard. And not equitable, not fair, not welcoming and not inclusive.
And I'm just talking about within the Asianness of it all, not my other black identity or my multiracial identity, but it was just among the Asian stuff, man. That's stunk a lot and people are just like, well, you only lived over there until you were like almost five.
I was like, it doesn't matter your location, all the isms within like Asian culture. Follow you or so they followed me and I realized, I was just like, wow, this is not an uncommon story, but it happens so frequently. And to everyone, I was like, this has to stop this feeling obligated. Feeling like you have to carry on the name or legacy or the ancestry feeling like you can't do X, Y, and Z, because it will reflect poorly, feeling like you are lesser than because you're a female, you know, all of these things feeling like you really, really have to marry and procreate in X kind of Asian way.
All me, all happened to me. And I was just like, Holy guacamole, this is crazy town. So watching it, I think I see it from a very different lens. And I'm very curious. I mean, it's not that old, but like how a lot of other, you know, Asian folks are seeing seeing this.
JUDY: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's like, you're, you're simultaneously watching it from the outside in, because now everybody else has insight into what it is that you experienced.
And then also from the inside out where you're like, wait, now there's like words and I have different awareness for all the things that I went through that were so unhealthy and like so traumatic. And even just like, I think that that's a lot of what I'm trying to do here too, is to give people the words that they need to express the things that they feel that they didn't know.
And I think if you're constantly experiencing microaggressions or outward, overt aggressions, it's easy to like shove it real far down. Cause you gotta like figure it out. And then also like, but then once something comes up to be able to, point to it and say , Oh my gosh, like that's what I, that's what happened to me.
I think it's re-traumatizing and I, I really feel like there needs to be a whole therapy session around like these shows that are coming out now.
Definitely. Yeah. Yes. I think that people who are not, you know, Asian are looking at it and they're thinking. Wow. It's so cool. But some people they're on that limited level of like, look at these Asian people and they speak English perfectly and they sound just like us.
Like that's where they're stuck. That was like looking at this a little bit differently than you. And I love the character. Judy, who was the, I believe she's the oldest daughter, but she is definitely seen as, as lesser than, and she's not gonna inherit the company or the money and she's not favored because she wasn't the first son
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT SEX
When she has a conversation with her sister-in-law. Wait a minute. They're Vietnamese, right? Yeah. I think they're Vietnamese with her sister-in-law about sex because she just told everybody she had a divorce. She just got divorced. She's like, well, you know, I think they're trying to do like online dating, whatever, filling out a questionnaire, just the shock and awe the sister-in-law of how incredibly open-minded she is about talking about sex and about her own sexuality.
I've never seen an Asian character. You know, on film, on screen, in a book that was as free as she was. And I was like, we need more of this honesty and we need people breaking norms and saying, you know what? I am not you. I don't represent all of that, of the old, the old world, so to speak, this is a new universe.
That's a new universe that you brought me into, came to this country in 1976 or whatever it was when they came, Oh my gosh, it was the same year as me, I think as, as my, yeah, that's interesting parallels for me. There's so much greatness and empowering. And again, I'm only a couple episodes in, but I'm, I'm really curious to see what comes of this.
And also I heard that they also got signed for a second season, wondering if it's going to stay authentic or if they're going to try to, you know, Kardashian-ize at all and just like, let's make sure we, you know, commodify it and that we monetize it and make sure we can, you know, continue and have a universal appeal.
TRIGGERED BUT LOVES IT
So everybody, forget universe. We don't need universal anything. We need to see what's real. What's really genuine. And so, so in ways I love it. I love it, period. How about that? I love it. There are moments where I am triggered, like no other and tears come to my eyes. I was like, Oh my gosh. And it makes me think about like, what am I willing to accept?
What am I still trapped in? What am I still burdened with? But also what are the wonderful things and the beautiful things and things that I can celebrate and pass onto my kids. But I didn't really think about it that deeply in this reality show is forcing me to
MIXED CULTURES - PARENTAL RELATIONSHIPS
Growing up does not mean more open conversations
JUDY: And I think that that's the thing about getting characters that look like you and books and, you know, characters that look like you on TV.
You can start at least to reflect upon it because otherwise if we didn't have these like these cultural shows and everything that we wouldn't have an opportunity to actually think about it for a second and be like, Oh, well, just going through your day to day, I mean, even like just small things.
The man that I'm dating now, he's a white man. And so he was having a conversation with his parents. Like they were just talking on the phone and I'm listening. I'm in my room, doing some work and stuff, but I could hear this every now and again, just whatever daily banter.
And after he got off the phone, I, we ended up going for a walk that night and I think it's really cool that you can have a conversation with your parents just about. Daily things like it's easy because I can't have that conversation with my parents because we don't speak the same language.
I can't even ask them even basic elementary dialogue can be challenging. So then it's an extra barrier. And so if I want to make that concerted effort to connect to my parents, not only are there the whole am I going to be judged for this thing that I say, this thing that I do, like there's the bigger, you know, ideas, but even just the small day-to-day conversations.
And it really made me realize like, wow, you're able to have a completely different relationship with your parents for that mere fact alone that you can share a language. And there's no barrier there that you can just say, hi, hello. How are you doing? What are you up to? And I can't after I said that to him, he was like, Whoa.
Like it was like, That would never that thought, why would that have ever come up for him? Like that would never come up. And so I think that these shows and, for better, or for worse, at least start to allow us to like, kind of have that sort of conversation and the expanded awareness.
Cause that just that small moment alone brought us closer together because it lent a new lens of compassion or awareness or understanding. And so I think that's what I hope happens more and more is like not the cancel culture that we're all a part of, or just those small moments can make such a big difference.
SUSAN: I have a question for you? Because this is fascinating because I am trying to figure out my answer too, do you think that there is hope and I'm going to give you my answer. I'm actually going to ask you and not answer it myself.
Do you think there is hope for our parents to be capable of and have the desire to have those Hello? How are you conversations? And to have that closeness? That's my question. Number one, number two. Is it. Unrealistic or, or is it kind of Americanizing or white culture leansing, you know, on what relationships should be between adults and children. Cause that's, that's the thing that I think of because I'm trying to, but I do not have conversations with my Chinese mother that are number one, authentic.
We get super angry with each other. Well, then it's super authentic and it's, but then again, I've damaged our relationship for like years to come and it takes so much, I've been just disrespectful. I don't understand the Chinese way. So for me, I don't know. I wish in my heart of hearts. I could have the relationships that I've seen my friends have, my friends who are, white and African American, they have with their mothers or their parents. I was just like, Oh my gosh, I would love to have that. But I don't think we're capable because we've had years and years and years of damage. And years of me censoring myself.
I tried, I failed miserably. I tried to not be disrespectful, but I also try to be myself. And so for me, I'm just like, I don't think I'm ever going to have that. And then I thought it. Am I just being selfish, wanting to fit my mother's way of mothering to, and let's not say American, it's a white culture thing.
Like white people in America are very much like my kid is my best friend. There is somebody who I can go to, I know my mom will always be there for me where that is not on my white, my Asian or my black side of my family. You know what I mean? And so for me, I was just like, I'm conflicted. Do I try to have this close relationship?
Was that just not possible for an Asian mother and child? I don't know. What do you think?
JUDY: Oh, that's such a good question. I love that you asked that when you were talking, I kept thinking about Growing Pains and like when I was growing up, if I were allowed to watch TV, If I were, then that was the show that I wanted to watch.
And just thinking what would it feel like to be like, so loved and so adored. What would that be like, and so I think that that idea of the white family is that in my mind is like, Ooh. And then the other thing that I thought about when you were talking is Akwafina in that movie, like The Farewell, or whatever it was, it was based on a NPR story.
I actually heard, but like how the adults, the adults in the Asian family decided not to tell the matriarch that she had a terminal illness. And so Akwafina who was raised in Western culture was like, what are doing? You can not tell her that she's dying. That's not fair. That's not a choice you get to make.
And they're like, yes, it is like, that is the choice. We are making it as like a collection of better for her kind of thing. And watching that and feeling so conflicted because she has to grasp like whether or not it is the better thing. And you know, she was raised differently. So she has different ideals, but then in the end of the spoiler alert, just going to let you know how it ends, but that the grandmother ends up living because she doesn't know she has this diagnosis.
So like yeah. In the NPR story and in this movie, she ends up living like, so was it a bad thing that they did that? And so I feel like similar to you, there've been years of damage. Like I know that at some point my mom tried to like reach out but it was also when I was in the middle of my eating disorder therapy and I was dredging up all of my past and being like, it's too little too late, you're not going to fix this.
So, but then also us becoming mothers and then reflecting upon what that's like, I thought I would have certain, like I thought I would have a lot more compassion, I think for my mother, because I had become a mother, but instead I started thinking well, I love my daughter so much.
And I have done so many hard things to protect her from certain adult things, because she's a child. And then to think like, why didn't you do that? Like, why couldn't you have like, gotten it together just a little bit more, but then again, that's like me having all of my judgments and her having a completely different upbringing where she's literally fleeing from communists and so I think it's so difficult.
And, and like you said, it gets real charged real fast, like lots of judgments, going on. So it's just easier not to talk about certain things. And I think it'd be the only resolution that I've tried to come up with is that. At least with my daughter, I try to open up the lines of communication.
We have that shared language, but there are still elements that in my upbringing, I thought I would never appreciate, but I actually really do appreciate and I bring into my own parenting. So that's a long-winded answer to say, like, I have no idea. I think we all want connection and love and affection for sure.
ASIAN MOTHER ASIAN DAUGHTER
Susan’s Chinese mother with half Asian half African American daughter
SUSAN: And who knows what that looks like with an Asian mother and an Asian daughter? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know that, I crave to have a closer relationship where I can really feel something and for there to be warmth there, it can look different. I'm open to looking different, but I don't know if it's possible because I think she desperately wants to make sure that I know that I'm loved.
And, but she can't do it. And I definitely want my mom to feel like she's respected. Cause I do, she's got some qualities and I'm like, you are a bad-ass, you know what I mean? But I feel like there's something in the way, so I hope we can figure it out.
JUDY: Yeah. I hope so too. And I think you're right.I think they do love us in their own ways as best as they know.
I can't imagine it was easy for them, you know? But as we close this interview, I wanted to ask you the name of the podcast is fuck saving face. So if there were one thing that you could say of wishing that. Would just be like a paradigm that could change or some sort of thing that we've always done that could be done differently or whatever it is. What would you say? Like, is there a taboo you want to like shine a light on or interesting.
DISORDERED EATING AMONGST ASIANS
SUSAN: You said something, and I was like, I need another five hours if you would talk about it. But do you mention something about disordered eating, which I actually have struggled with disordered eating on both sides, disordered over eating.
Disordered under eating a lot of it dealing with Asian identities. So I feel like one, you know, myths about Asian women is that no matter what we have perfect bodies that we're naturally very thin. You know, Asians don't raisin. But, you know, I was, I might have made that up because I was like black don't crack and Asians don't raisin.
But there's so many myths about like, you know, Asian women and like beauty ideals and that we are forever going to look timeless. We are never going wrinkle. We are never going to, you know, have saddlebags and cellulite. And I was like, well, let me give you a, B and C number one. And it's really, really tough because expectations for Asian women are different.
There's so many, I've got like 10 in my head. And that was the first one that came to light.
JUDY: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a big topic. We'll have to dive into it another time because I was always the only Asian person in any sort of eating disorder therapy, whether it was outpatient support groups, whatever.
Not because other Asian women didn't suffer from these things at all, but just because I was willing to be out in public about it. You think that, Oh, because you look a certain way, you know this, but as we all know, like with so many addictions or different challenges, disorders and whatnot.
It's usually not about the thing. It's about the other underlying things. So the underlying things was all the anger that I had and the rage. So I compulsively over ate. I was anorexic, but my disordered eating of choice was bulimia because I was so angry and it's such a violent disease that you like shovel this food in yourself, and then you make it come back out in such a, like in an intense kind of way.
So, yeah. And that's like a lot of it was the Asian impact, but yeah.
SUSAN: You know, let me just be very, very eloquent. Ditto girl, ditto.
JUDY: You know, there's a show that I've been watching. Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist. And the second season they brought in, one of the characters is married to an Asian woman and then her sister comes and I, her sister is, you know, bigger and louder and doesn't it have it all together?
Like speak and I'm like, Yes. Like at least you're breaking some stereotypes with this character. So hopefully there'll be more of that too. More sex talk.
SUSAN: Thank you. Literally, I feel so much more empowered and real, and I've thought of things in a very different and new way.
So I thank you for this.
JUDY: Thank you. I'm so excited. So if people want to follow up with you, because I know that you had a YouTube channel and all of this stuff, or if somebody just wants to connect with you, how can they connect with you?
SUSAN: Yeah. So this is not only of my Asian identity or any identity.
This is what I do for self care, because I definitely believe that self care isn't, self-care, its self preservation. And so right now, during these. Fascinating and unprecedented and unpredictable and all those little silly terms that people use to describe what we're going through right now.
That is how I relax. That is how I release. That's how I decompress is I do these little fun YouTube videos. It's Simply Susan on YouTube. And then if anybody wants to get in touch with me and they want to have a further conversation or a chit chat or anything, they can reach simplysusanlivingoutloud.gmail.com
And I am newly very terribly on Instagram @simplysusanxo. So those are the three places you can, you can find me.
JUDY: I think maybe you and I need to start like a group therapy processing for all the shows that are coming out.
SUSAN: Because I am crying in my bed. Alone at night being super sad about things and yes, that would be wonderful.
JUDY: Thank you so much.
