EPISODE 35: HOW TO BE QUEER WITH AYOTO ATARAXIA
MEET AYOTO ATARAXIA
Ayoto Ataraxia (Chinese: 鄭博榕; pingyin: Zheng Borong; born 23 August 1985) is an artist who has worked as a director, writer, performing artist, producer, poet and musician. He graduated from Istituto Europeo di Design with cum laude in 2009, and from the School of Visual Arts with honors in New York City, 2013. '
He is the host of Asian Provocation, a podcast that brings stories of humans and their observations, reflecting on their marginal views and queer perspectives.
You can also visit his website.
SHOW NOTES
It’s Pride Month — and I’m excited to bring you a deep, deep, deep conversation with Ayoto Ataraxia who speaks about sex positivity, sex negativity, exploring sexual identity, homophobia and being queer, being a third culture kid, figuring out “Asian-ness,” and being scared to go into the hard topics. There’s a huge discussion of being an Asian male, shamanic and psilocybin experiences and how to communicate with your Asian parents.
We also dive into:
Felix who organizes these festivals and exchanges: http://felixruckert.de/news/biography/ & https://xplore-berlin.de/
The TED Talk “The Red Pill” with Cassie Jaye
And books he loves but didn’t mention, Masochism: A Jungian View and The Agony of Eros
FULL TRANSCRIPT
At the beginning of this interview with Ayoto Ataraxia, I actually mispronounce his last name when I introduce him, which was actually such a sticking point for me, like personally inwardly as I'm talking to him, because my last name is so hard to pronounce. It's a bunch of vowels smushed together. T S U E I all in my life.
I'm like T as in Tom, S as in Sam, U E I, and I've had people say to Sui to sway, sway sweet. I've had to correct people all of my life. And so even when I was taking Spanish in school or when I met anybody else, I would really make a point of saying their name correctly, because I feel like it's this demonstration of respect and honoring, even if the culture is different, even if the words are different or harder, it was also challenging because, you know, I have this T S sound at the beginning and I never wanted to just be like, oh, just say sway instead of sway.
I really want that T S sound in there. So many people couldn't do it, but then the tsunami happened and it was on the news all the time. And I heard all of these white people being able to say the TSA sound that's sound. And I was like, what the fuck, dude, how have you been able to do this this whole time?
So I apologize to Ayoto during the interview, but I feel like there's, you know, something around names and languages that are such a big deal for people who. Do you come from immigrant parents or do have different cultures that you're trying to blend together and figuring it out without having to let go of parts of your identity and really embracing and honoring all of what makes you, who you are.
I'm excited in a future interview as well. With the sister duo team of hello, lucky, because they talk about that, that they like me believe that, you know, there are so many beautiful elements to Asian culture or the Chinese cultures that we grew up with and the Western culture. And if we could blend the two, it could be really such a harmonious balance, but.
It's going to be a journey to navigate that. So I hope that this conversation with Ayoto today, who is an artist, he worked as a director, a writer, a performing artist, a producer, a poet, and a musician. And he worked with different companies in New York, apple. You know, now he's living abroad in Germany and he's the host of Asian provocation, a podcast that brings stories of humans and their observations.
All these marginal views and these queer perspectives together. So you'll hear a bit about his journey, how he is still learning, how to communicate with his parents and how he's learning, how to embrace all of his identity, including exploring. You know, the queer space and what that means for him. And he's studied a lot.
You can hear it in the interview of all the books that he's read. All the topics that he's dove into this interview is probably just a smidge of a much longer conversation that he and I could have had. So if there are any questions, definitely go to the show notes and there'll be as many links as I could include.
And if you'd like to hear more from him, you'll have his contact information. Or if there are guests that I have brought on throughout this time that the podcast has been around that you're very curious about, you can always go to patreon.com/fcksaving face and become a member. And I will bring those guests back on and have more frank & open and honest discussions kind of behind the scenes.
So without further ado, enjoy today's episode. I'm also here because I really believe in celebrating and honoring marginalized voices by amplifying the platform that they can have. I remember reading something about Barack Obama's administration and how the women felt like they weren't being heard. So one of the techniques that they used was for one of them to speak up.
And then for the other woman, a fellow colleague to echo what that woman said, and then another one to echo that. And so through the power of numbers and through that sharing and support. These voices started being more heard in what were traditionally male dominated industries. So I hope that today's episode is an opportunity to amplify an LGBTQ plus voice and that, you know, it is hard.
Love is hard. Have you ever been in a relationship? It can be really difficult to navigate your own emotions and somebody else's. And then to have that clear communication, which. If you were raised in an Asian family, you were probably not taught how to talk about your feelings. You're probably not taught how to listen to someone else as they share their feelings and create that safe kind of space.
So I hope that this conversation creates that safe space. I hope that, you know, it truly is an opportunity to see that we are all human with all different kinds of preferences and there's. So much beauty in being able to honor and celebrate our differences or our uniqueness or whatever it is that makes us us.
And if you find love, however, it looks for you, I honor and celebrate that. It is a remarkable thing. So I hope you enjoy today's episode.
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei, and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Like may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.
I'm really excited to have Ayoto Ataraxia today. He's the host of Asian provocation. It's an incredible podcast that I'll let him put into his own words, but today we're going to cover. Different topics in terms of sex, positivity, sex negativity, you know, the LGBTQ plus communities and living internationally as well.
And what kind of perspective that provides. So I go to, can you tell me a bit about yourself? How would you describe yourself? Oh, just a small note. It's no big deal. Sorry. No worries. How do I identify myself? Yeah. Like what what'd you say is your story? Oh, that's a very big, broad question. Let's dive into a person going through life.
I would just say that that's as much, I used to have more labels for myself. I would say I'm an artist or I'm a photographer director, but as time goes on and so much is changing in our society. And. All the different backgrounds and there's a third culture kid. If you want to use that label, that a lot of that stuff started to make less sense as I continue with this journey.
So I'm just a person with questions I would say. Mm, I love that. Can you tell me about what Asian provocation is about? How do you explain that? I started the podcast October last year, 2020. It was touring. It was several months into the lockdown. There was black lives matter. There was all these issues.
And I found myself unable to work because of all the lockdown movement restrictions. And I had a lot of time. And in that time, and in the reflection, I've always had issues, disgusting Asian-ness and what that means, and my relationship to that, because it's very complicated for me. I have. Several different identities.
But one thing that was clear was the issue surrounding the subject of the esperar around Asian-ness. And so I started to ask a lot more questions there and I wanted to speak about my investigations and one of those things, and you probably can relate to this Judy, but the idea of, for example, for fuck's saving face, it's very much this energy it's.
I didn't dare to go into that. I was scared and the podcast was a way for me to unravel that. And at first, the first iteration, or first one of, I dunno if you had this, but to start coming up with a name for the podcast, I came up with a list, right. With all the different names in different things. And what the previous name I had was the invisible other.
A lot there in terms of what I was feeling and understanding of the nurse and so on. But I realized another thing, which was, I was consciously trying to avoid the discussion of Asian because I didn't fit into Asian. What is Asia anyway? And I realized that there is this taboo that I had for myself. And I thought, I think, and I had a theory that that was there for others.
And so I thought, no, let me go. Right into it. Let me sit really deep in the fire. So to speak from ornamental and I embraced that and decided to start a podcast called Asian provocation. And that's how I started it. Mm, I love what you said about the invisible other cause before when you and I got into a preliminary conversation about it, we talked about Asian men and how there's just this feeling that it's the kind of invisible gender invisible group.
Can you talk about that and what your experience has been like with that? Yeah, that's a huge, huge discussion and it doesn't come without certain understanding of danger and. A potential in very necessary discussion that I do believe us as a society really need to go into, uh, just some background. I've been a very avid reader around subjects of gender around feminism.
And I remember one of the films that started on one of these journeys was. The film called the red pill. And it's, I don't know if you've seen that movie. No, I haven't. You've mentioned it in terms of the Ted talk. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And she went, she was a self-professed feminist. She wanted to dig into some of these taboo subjects because there were these groups, the men rights men's rights activists.
MRAs and they have a lot, it's a very, very taboo subject. Anyway, people can watch the movie themselves and see what they think. I'm not a men's rights activist myself. And I think what was important was that her journey to highlight that topic, she found herself in this huge backlash. Were to realize that there was actually so much hatred for even the discussion about the insecurities and inferiorities of men.
And I realized going through that, that if I was really to even think about equality or feminism, that a big part was to also examine myself and my relationship with, let's say, we want to talk about mysogeny. If we want to talk about equality. That I realized I had to unpack and really look at it. And a big part of that was realizing that, and as you probably preach as well in your podcast is about vulnerability and go through therapy and go and see all of that.
And that uncovered a lot in terms of my own sexuality, my own racism, my own form of phobia. I grew up in Australia. There's massive homophobia there. And. Going into that. I realized I was living in the myth, even though I thought I was working, I was very well read. And with all these different subjects, I realized that I haven't really examined myself.
And I've been telling myself a lot of lies and a big part of that was the understanding of what it means to be a man. And secondly, what it means to be an Asian man in diaspora. So that's where I started to really unpack. And it was horrifying because it was, there was just a lot, you know, um, I feel like surprisingly for me, that a lot of the feedback that I've been getting has been from Asian men, who've shared, you know, thank you so much for giving words to the experiences that I've had.
It's been a great eye-opening awareness to be reminded that so much of what we experienced is just the human condition, but also just. How Asian men, especially, you know, haven't necessarily had kind of that forum to speak up. I hope that everybody goes to your Instagram and to your podcast and explore as more and dives deeper into their own journey.
I didn't ask you at the beginning when you shared that you're somewhat third culture. Can you share what your Asian identity is? And a little bit of where you've grown up, where you've lived? Yeah, I was born in Taiwan. And my Taiwanese name is Paul Young and my Mandarin name is, uh, boron. I've let go of my English rendition of my name because I understood the ugliness of the colonizing way in which people had to in which my family and I had to integrate into a very into white Australia.
And that's where we immigrated in the nineties, early nineties. And because Taiwan at the time, as you know, was in a, what do you call that? A military? Um, yeah, so that's, that was where I was born. And I put, I was only there for six, seven years, so I didn't really have too much understanding. And this is the interesting thing about the culture kids.
Particularly I find people who have migrated around that age around six or seven. And I've been noticing a very specific observation of behavior and personality sets depending on these different ages in which people migrate. So that was where I, that was the Asian. We went to Australia and then I grew up in Australia.
I was very much integrated over time, but part of that process, I had to learn and internalize a lot of racism. In as a form of adaptation as a form to be a part of a white racist, white supremacist society. And that took me some time to unpack as well. And then I, part of my whole life, I lived in Thailand and also China and China was a really interesting thing because it was in some ways, if you will, a kind of Homeland, but also not because Taiwanese.
There's a lot of anti China, mainland China propaganda. Yep. I lived in China as well, China and Taiwan. So I had that same similar experience. Exactly. So that's pretty heavy stuff. And as an adult, I started to dig into the history of that. What does it mean? What is Taiwan? What is China? Where does my family come from?
Where what's my roots. And I started to dig into that and I follow my own family tree. And going all the way back to two tongues and gong. I don't know if you know this man, and he's the he's one, he's one of the characters of, or important figures that has said that was supposedly one of the founders of Taiwan.
I can, I believe in the 14 hundreds, I could be wrong. I have to double-check. And what was interesting about him was I. To discover it. So we prayed to this guy and there's sculptures of this man and this persona. Uh, but what I discovered looking back and tracing back, and he was born in Japan of the samurai family and he was Japanese and his mother's Japanese, but at the time he understood himself to be a Ming loyalist from China.
Hm. And so he, he was, his whole life was wanting to. Regain the power of the Ming dynasty and know that people and so on. He didn't really see himself as Japanese, whatever that means at that time. And so he followed this, he created this whole rebellion and when fought, but he lost, and there's a kind of parallel to the Chiang Kai-shek story.
And he also retreated to this island of Taiwan. He was the one who kicked off. The colonizing Dutch from the island, the most that those known at the time. And he tried to regain his strength and regain his power, but he never did. And there's many theories about that, but he eventually settled and all the generations that follow them, we are from where the dentist's direct ancestors.
So he, sorry, he's the direct ancestor of my family. What I found interesting about this story was just this idea. About what is Taiwan and what is culture? What is it? And I realized that all of this is just temporal and it's all relative. And so it seemed also absurd to be screaming yeah. Saying, Hey, I'm Taiwanese or no, I'm Chinese or I'm this or that.
So that was a big part where I decided to like all of that, I didn't want to participate anymore. And I think a big influence was also my. Upbringing. I had a lot of, I was, um, in a Christian school as well as a lot of heavy Buddhist philosophies in my family. So I always was, there was an understanding about, we had friends who became monks.
And I remember my parents didn't really tell me that this was this other person. So one day there was this person that we knew, and then suddenly this person just became a monk. And I was too young to follow, but, and then they, one day they would say, oh, say hello to the Reverend or whatever the title is in Mandarin.
And I was thinking, but that's the other person that, that woman, and now they're at this person, you know, no pronouns, no old name, no civilian clothing. And I always thought, oh, that's kind of really interesting to like, not participate anymore in like human pain issues. Hmm. So I'm curious, because you had mentioned that you changed your name, which I'm again, sorry that I mispronounced and I just feel like name is such an interesting thing.
You know, growing up, my last name has three valves in a row, which is really hard for people to pronounce and then the Ts sound they could never get. And so. It's a subtle way. I feel of some of the bigger topics that you've discussed of internalized racism, uh, you know, kind of that finding response of making fun.
Even now, these days I catch myself, I was just talking to my neighbor the other day and just catching myself about. My own perpetuation of stereotypes to make light of a situation. So I think that this journey of identity is continual and there are so many big topics that you brought up that, like you said, they're such big questions we could go on for hours about it.
But I'm curious about the name that you have now. How did you come to that? Yeah. Names are really important and it's not easy for people who are in the Amman to understand why that's a big deal. Because we are living in, especially right now, at least we're speaking English were dealing with a Eurocentric Latin-based environment.
So that default we have to understand, and there's a huge history and culture that comes with that. But for those of us who move from one system to another, that's a big pressure. And that's something that becomes a judgment. Of a person because you don't come with that same lineage and that default understanding.
So my name was really fascinating in terms of my process, because again, I wasn't born with my car name and my previous English name iteration. My dead name was given to me as a, and we were told during immigration that it would probably be better if you assimilate it and choose. A, an English name, a Latin name.
And we flip through a book of generic English names and chemo. One that sounded most like me. And we chose that and I never felt close to that. I never felt connected to that has nothing to do with my Chinese name nor my Tony's name. And I read when I was growing up in Australia, I was also very inspired by a lot of Aboriginal stories and cultures.
And I really love the idea that they, when they became an adult, they go through a ceremony and they choose a new name for themselves that is different than them, that they were given as a child and that name they would choose based on what they felt connected to for their life purpose and what they felt themselves to be.
And I felt that this process to be hugely inspiring and there's also some relation to. What Malcolm X, I'm a big fan of Malcolm X and a lot of his writings. And although I, I don't identify as black. I don't have relationship with Islam by his understanding his journey. I can really understand his struggles.
And one of those things is that, and religion was a big part for him as well. And he said, well, you know, we need to have a religion for the black man. And that's where he reintroduced Islam for himself and for his community. There's a big discussion about that. And you can look into that, but I realized for me though, that all of those things are an influence.
And if I subscribe to another cultures system, I need to find my own position in that and not just be put into a subservient position, which I find a lot of Asians in diaspora particularly are forced into. We're forced into a form of servitude and all the history that comes with that. So I wanted to self liberate myself and control and.
Define my own narrative. And so, and the shamanic process. That's where I arrived with my current name. Mm, that's so powerful because, you know, I remember growing up and going to Chinese school every Saturday, and then all of a sudden the way Giles system was introduced. So pinging and like everything was spelled differently and my last name would have been spelled differently.
And I think what you're saying too is you're giving people permission to go through those rites of passage to find what works for them. Because, you know, if you think about it, like, we didn't have a say in the name that we were given when we were born. And especially if you've emigrated or. You know, had to become the goal potentially is to assimilate for a lot of immigrants in other cultures that there's all this kind of bastardization or just doing whatever you can to fit in with the dominant majority.
So I love that story of how you came to the name that you have. And what is the meaning of the name that you came through with the shamanic process? So are you is a name just, it's more of a sound and. Knowing what I know about my ancestors and that journey. It's not Japanese, but it could sound Japanese for the year.
More of a feeling it's, it's not an old Japanese, it's just the sound. And I just like the phonetic and the visual aspect in a very somatic relation I have with that particular sound in that particular name that I can own myself and that can, it powers me. And that's my relationship to it. And I thought Aksia is a Greek word.
And I thought as much as I try to escape your centrism and I try to bring on whatever this so-called Asian, this, I realized that's also not me because my entire adult life, except for the five years I lived in China. And two years I lived in Thailand, five years in Taiwan, but actually most of my.
Experience and culture and facing has been in a Eurocentric or some kind of Greek or Latin system. And so I wanted to have something that reminds me of that. And I came across this word Lexia, which is a Greek term that was first used in the Greek philosophy that defines a state of serene calmness. And.
It was something that I wanted to have as a personal reminder, as a personal token that I could know that I could hold onto within myself. And it's something that internally I can feel rooted towards because there's not much else I have in my life that can give me that kind of security. I love that.
One of the things that you also just mentioned is the shamonic process. And one of the things that you and I had talked about previously was that kind of expansion of consciousness through different, you know, psychedelics or different types of substances that are used in ceremony. Can you speak about your experience?
Yeah, it's still an ongoing research. I've been always very curious with that. And again, I, I grew up with, uh, Christian. I went to a Christian private school, but I also had like hugely the Chinese schools on the weekends. My mother is a huge tiger mom and a shout out to my mom. So I went through a lot of different kinds.
I learned a lot of religious rights and different practices. And I hated it as a child. It was unbearable. I did so much temple experiences, both Christian and Buddhist, and they, my parents also follow different, uh, religious leaders. I realize now though, that a lot of that stuff still comes back to me and I understand, and I connect to it easily and it's not something of a exotic thing.
It was very, it was very much my culture that I was in. But as an adult, you know, in my teenage years, as part of my rebellious phase, I would experiment in all kinds of drugs. And I think that base, that rebellious faced was helpful for me to remove the taboo that I have with substances. And as I got older, I understood the cultural and social makeup.
The different cultures might have an aversion to all these things, but I was able to unpack that. And later in life in the last few years actually, uh, I started to, and then now there's definitely much more access. So I would discover that from people that would provide these things, and I also would read a lot about people, will that facilitate these journeys, how that is constructed.
And again, I am by no means a Sharman. I have no idea. I just read and I go through these things, but I definitely have enjoyed. The benefits of these different things. I guess a big part of it is my parents are very, I don't want to condescend them by saying superstitious, but in my mind as a child, that's what it felt like.
Especially in, in. Quote, unquote, Western Australian society, the scientific method, and so on all of the ethnic cultural things seems to be just while we were in bizarre. And what's irritating is now that Orientalism has become more of a trend and, uh, capitalism is now milking. A lot of these things. It just becomes another extension of capitalism.
So with a lot of these learnings and with these drugs and plants and medicines, I start to realize that it's you can't just extract those things and go for a trip without the wisdoms of things before now, I guess a big part of it was like my own journey to forgive my parents. Because my parents were also really wanting to share that and pass some of those knowledge, but I couldn't deal with it because it wasn't scientific in my mind, but only now I realize that there is also limitations of the scientific process.
And so that's where I start to get more interested and look at the properties and look at different literature and things that's passed on by different cultures and some of these jobs. How did you find out about the shamonic experience? What was your experience with that? Like, I think for a lot of people, you know, this could be completely foreign.
I know it wasn't until my, probably early thirties that I started even hearing about things like ayahuasca and whatnot. So can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, it was very scary for me too. So the first, you know, I I've had experiences with, let's say marijuana or psilocybin, but a lot of that was in a more party context or having fun or getting wasted.
And over time I would start to hear or. Come into contact with different people and they would provide different things. But when it came to let's say particularly, yeah, I was scared I was suicidal. And some of the stories of that was horrifying for me. I thought, oh God, what is this interdimensional product?
Or, you know, voices, I don't want to lose my mind and all these stories. And, but a lot of that phobia where I now understand is. Based on fear. And now in I'm currently in Berlin and in Berlin, I started to go, I, I was online dating online is this, this is probably a better way to say it. I, I was coming out of very long-term monogamous relationship and there was a lot of on dealt with problems in my own life, which then led into every other aspects of my life.
And, um, part of what helped was coming into contact with very good supply of psilocybin. And I thought, I didn't think much of it and that wasn't any form of shamanic process, but the substance itself was so good that it liberated a lot of things to me. And so I was also. Going online and dating and seeing different people.
And I was, I came into a new city. I moved from New York and I came to Berlin and I've met. I met a Shabbat master. On online dating. Hmm. I had no desire or curiosity or interest, except that it's theoretically look cool. There was, you know, certain pictures online or, but I never really cared for it to be honest.
I mean, now it's a huge commercial enterprise. I just went to a workshop for it because it's going everywhere and it's very, there's a lot there. But at the time I had no idea and I had no idea that this person that I'm going on a date with is a huge master and has studied a lot. And I just thought, okay, maybe I could get laid her and she's there.
And she introduces me to all her friends and I always just in a very blissful state, uh, cause I was taking psilocybin as well. Yeah. I, I found myself in a situation because. Psilocybin for me, it has the effect of removing, reducing dramatically, my neurosis neurotic tendencies. And, uh, I just become on a much easier flow.
And suddenly I couldn't believe myself that I was in the world where I didn't feel that kind of sexual racism that I experienced in New York or other places. And I started to. Yeah, I found another lover there. I met another lover and I was just invited to all these things and, and I was in the kind of sexual rev, personal sexual revolution compared to the very rigid and very limited experience that I had before.
And one of the lovers that I met, she introduced me to a man named Felix record. And he's, uh, he's a good friend of mine now, and he organizes a lot of, uh, festivals and events and communities around BDSM and sex positivity. Uh, I had no idea about any of this. I just thought, okay, this person that I'm sleeping with, or I'm having some flirtatious things where she says, you should just come to this thing.
She said to me and I, uh, okay. And, uh, I go there. I had no idea. She said, don't read anything about it. Don't worry. Just common. I thought, is this some kind of cult am I going to get sacrificed? Um, but he was, you know, Felix has the video and actually you can, there's a link I can share with you here. This is talking a lot about creating sex positive spaces and his philosophies and.
At the time I've read certain books like the red queen, or I dunno, or the poly entry gateway, poly sex, positive books, feminist books as well. And you know, they're all theoretical, but here was the person that was practicing in a very advanced level with a lot of different people and wisdoms around the world.
And he was sharing some of these talks and I thought, well, okay, I didn't get sacrificed, but the discussions are very interesting. And, um, my lover at the time was saying, well, did you enjoy that? I said, yeah, that was interesting. And he said, okay, you should come to Rome. I say, okay, what is it? Don't worry about it.
Just go online. I just think don't look at the website. It's terrible, but trust me. It's good. Anyway. Good, good. Don't go to places or events that has good websites. They probably don't have really good stuff, but this is one of those people that thinks that it's organized by an older generation has no idea about the internet stuff is good.
Don't worry about it. Just, just come and ask it. Uh, okay. You know, this was like my yes. Phase where I just said, fuck it. Like all of the previous, you know, expectations I already, you know, got rid of my studio in New York. I sold my car. That was the title I literally took my car to the dealership, gave him the thing to come, you check.
And I took a cab to the airport. And so, you know, I, I always say, fuck it, you know, let's with what could happen. So I go to row. And I had no idea at the time, but I was there a bit early with some of the organizers because I was friends with them. But I, at the time I didn't realize that I was surrounded by some of the best and most advanced practitioners in the world of BDSM.
Tantrica bodywork, all these kinds of things. And yeah, I, you can say the rest is history, but that was kind of the start of my. Diving into that world. And I was shown the whole thing by experience and yeah, and I continued to take my psilocybin and, and in these events, they call it explore events. That it's a lot, but I could only describe it as imagining cramming decades of therapy into a weekend because they would invite a very amazing assortment of people to come and give workshops.
Every everything from. Psychologists to opera singers, to Olympic swimmers divers, and they combine everything. They, they play with everything and mixing everything. And in the, in the foundation of a sex positive space, people are questioning and creating play spaces. Um, and that was when I realized I had so much construct about what is.
Masculinity. What is dominance? Who is the submissive person? What are all these structures? And I was unofficially because officially they say, don't take drugs. This is the, they also have to be careful with, it's not a drug event, but I was personally medicating myself with psilocybin at the time. And, um, it just helped me open having very extremely open mind and.
It's exploded my, my psyche. So that's a kind of long-winded story of an introduction to where heavily. And, you know, I mean, that feedback of it feels like, like decades of therapy that you jam in like a short amount of time, that's something that I've heard from a lot of different people. Who've experienced these, you know, psilocybin or psychedelic type of drugs.
I also want to be. Responsible and say that everyone has their own journey. And if that is something that you're interested in exploring, then to be sure that you're doing it within a trusted space, the environment and the shamanic leader and anybody who's facilitating that experience does create a big impact.
So for anybody who's curious, and to learn more and I'll include the links, because I'm really curious about the Felix person who you mentioned, but I think it flows into one of the big questions that I wanted to ask you, you know, your podcast on your Instagram. You say hosting a queer Asian diaspora podcast, and you talked about sex, positivity and BDSM and all of that.
And how you living internationally has given you an opportunity to see how certain cultures are sex negative. I didn't even realize the term sex positive until I would say like the last five years or so. So I'd love for you to share what that means to you and what that journey has been like for you as an Asian man as well.
Oh, another big question. Yeah. Right. It was one store. Yeah. The, the idea of sex positivity. And for me as a queer person, it's an understanding of myself that I've no idea what I actually want or desire or any of those things, but it's a slow process and journey through that. So it's the first thing that was easy for me to understand was that I was brought into a very sex, negative homophobic society.
Uh, I was listening to some of your previous podcast episodes and just this common discussion about sex education as a Asian in diaspora, uh, with Asian parents. And like, they don't know what to do. So, so that was a huge. Realization for myself. And even, you know, I read all these different research and studies and they say, oh yeah, there was this one research that showed, and this is again like the limitation of the scientific method.
Not that I don't agree with it, but it's important to see the limitations of it. So one study was that they measure it, the bodily reactions to certain stimulus between men and women. And then noticed that women could be potentially aroused by a huge variation of things anywhere from not just men or women, but even animals or inanimate objects or situations and concepts, but for men.
It was very clear if somebody was more sexually attracted to a man or a woman, and that if they proclaim themselves to be gay or BI or hetero, they seem to be very close to that. Like they don't just be, they're not just aroused by anything. And so that's the conclusion and the theory was that, and the hypothesis was that perhaps men and more.
Stubborn or tend to be one way or another, but what I learned and realize for myself and coming to some of these communities and experiencing some different communities and people in Europe that had different education and different upbringing, that a lot of these things are completely thrown out the window.
And. The the more I learn, the more read, the more I see that it, it just depends like what is gay? What? And so I see the importance for myself, the identity of queerness, because I might be quote unquote hetero, but actually I realized that's just my conditioning and I see so much other people that.
Depending on their conditioning, don't have a lot of these issues. And I think that's where the discussion about some of the questions that he's uncovered by men's rights, activists that we need to start questioning. What is masculinity? What is being a man and what is homosexuality? And there's another big argument that questions, the recent concept of being gay and that it's actually a big mimicry to hetero concepts.
So other periods of homosexual history, we'll see that there is no concept of top and bottom. That that concept is a derivative of the misogyny that is in this society. And it's other examples, right? Like the easy ones, right? Like ancient Greece, man. Boy love is very common. The same in MRI history. Which the Japanese nationalists would try to really hide away.
That's some of these things I've been exploring and some of the guests that we've been talking about. And another thing is if you look at history of Islam, that, for example, in the 19th century, the incontinent normal that the homosexuality was very, it was accepted by law, including the love between a man and a boy in the sense that.
Love and appreciation of boys from a man with a beard, with a boy with no facial hair. So that was the definition. So that was normalized for that society. And so I started to think, God, like. I am just a product of my society and this, this society, the so-called white Australia, which came into being known in 1901.
Why should I subscribe to that limitation? And on top, even if I want to subscribe to the quote unquote Eurocentric ideals here in Germany, in Berlin, they have a whole nother concept. So I couldn't hold onto anything anymore. Nothing was static. Everything was constantly in. In dynamic movement. So I stopped trying to be hetero or CIS or whatever things.
And for me, queer is as beautiful. Concept just as being something of an outside so much to unpack there. Have you had any sort of discussion with your parents about this? And I mean, I think the reason that I ask is because I imagine that for someone listening to this who is on that journey of exploration, if you were raised by tiger parents, as you and I were that it.
There's just so such a strong impression of what's right and wrong and what's acceptable and not, and given that primal connection of that feeling of, well, if my parents don't accept me or my family of origin doesn't accept me, you know, that, what does that mean? Does that mean that I'm completely abandoned?
Does that mean that, you know, I won't be able to thrive. There are so many different. Elements and layers to that, but I'm just curious as to, in your own journey, have you been able to yeah. Have conversations about that or connect about that? Or is it like, there are plenty of people that I know who are just like, it's too hard to have a conversation about anything real with my parents.
So I'm just going to leave it alone. That's a huge, huge part. Yeah. The, the difficulty with Asian tiger parents and my own relationship with my parents has been. A huge chapter. And I do think that it is a, it is a kind of corner piece of the difficulties and the journeys of which I'm going through. And, and I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a journey that requires both sides.
Um, so my own relations with them has been very, very difficult. You know, you, you might be able to relate to this, but when I was young, I don't like to be sick, not because I don't want to be. Uh, sick or vulnerable, but because if I'm sick, I would get yelled at for not taking care of myself, told me to do see.
I told you, you didn't wear enough clothes. I mean, we live in Australia so hot, but there was obsessed with all you see, you're drinking cold water or you're eating this or drinking that. And you see, you didn't learn a lot of that. And so I developed this phobia of being honest and opening up to them because the truth.
We'll just produce there. Wasn't a kind of empathetic understanding. They just wanted things. They wanted the problems to go away. They wanted to, they wanted me to bypass the pain that they knew was coming from me. And if one looks into Buddhism, I mean, the, the, the, the story of Buddha was also this concept, right.
That his parents. The Kings and Queens of the place that he was born at prince, but his parents couldn't allow him to see and experience pain and suffering until one day, Buddha himself walked out of the city gates and observed death for the first time and he couldn't handle it. And he started asking questions.
So that was a bit of my relationship with my peers, that they couldn't bear. Seeing me going through pain. And when I did, they would internalize almost as if they will go through the pain themselves. So that was the big foundation and construct. And that the difficulty, and in one of your previous conversations, I had the same thing where I realized I didn't share the same language with them, even though we all speak Taiwanese Mandarin English, but I'm speaking of the language of.
The culture or shared worldview. So our base construction was so apart that it takes so much for us to, to discuss. And a lot of times our conversations. Would end in massive fights and frustrations. I can't last more than, I don't know, 20 minutes speak very superficial. Like, did you have dinner yet? Blah, blah, blah.
And then I would either, I have to choose either to lie and come up with a fictional story. Or just skip it or, you know, or if that go into it, I know this is going to be a huge, huge deal. And then we're going to sit here and have a huge discussion. Then it's not, the odds are great. Aren't great in terms of coming out with a solution, but over time, I would say that I've also gotten older.
And so have they. And their own journey in Buddhism. Uh, and I don't know exactly what journeys they're going through, but I see also some changes and softening and their ability to listen and to apologize. And I also had to develop my own self right to, I learned and read about the process of with parents and children, that to stop having this parent child conversation in relationship.
Hmm. And I, I requested them that we start having adult to adult conversations. And one of those things that, um, in that you guys, in a previous episode, you talked about was the difficulty in trying to understand cultural differences. And I don't like that term because again, back to my original argument, like what is culture?
These are artificial constructs that is limited to a time and place. Right. So I don't see it as a cultural thing that, oh, do you have low culture? I have my culture. What is culture? I, I have so many different cultures, but I do see that certain things will move us towards violence and certain things will help us resolve things and improve our relationship and increase communication.
So that was what I tried to move us towards. And then. At the same time, trying to be my own therapist with my I'm also a chart of that. Yeah. And wanting to have this conversation, but these are the slow steps over the years. And since starting the podcast, I think it was a very interesting experience because I had a conversation with another friend that talked about coming out to his parents.
And I had an very heartwarming story that somebody said shared that. After they heard my podcast and episode that they themselves same day came out to their parents and I thought, oh my God, wow. I haven't even gotten to that. Oh, wow. And I said to myself that, you know, in an unconscious manner, that this project is a way for me to be able to speak to my parents indirectly and to profess and come out.
Uh, slowly the complexities of my life, because I can't say it's in, um, what do you call that in a, in a first person with them directly, but I have it all transcribed so that they could translate it. And they told their, I mean, they might have to do a bit of work. You ask them. And sometimes I think I asked them to say, Hey, um, did you, did you listen to my podcast?
And, uh, my dad said something, is that, um, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And he tried to shrug it off. He said, oh no, you know, it's, it's, it's kinda complicated. And yeah. And then another time he said, he said to me, he said, you know, I have to say, you're very good, very articulate. And I realize that this is like one of the few times in my life that my dad has ever given me a direct compliment, like an honest, like.
You never said, like, I mean, I think he's tried with like the understanding of like, you know, Aussies do this, like, oh, I love you. And we try to have hug and it's really weird, but this was the first time I felt really seen or heard and loved and really appreciate it. And he says, you know, I come to realize that you have so much experience and that I can't even come close to some of your experiences what you were saying.
And he didn't say I'm proud of you, but I could actually feel. That kind of pride in him and that kind of closeness. So that really changed a lot in our relationship. That's remarkable. I mean the last, like five to 10 minutes as you've been sharing, I've just been sitting here silently nodding my head, being like, yep.
That's exactly my same experience. And you articulated it so well. So I'm going to echo the compliment that your dad shared. But I think that everything that you're expressing, I mean, I've been listening to Barack Obama's book and he says like, as a leader, who's worked with different nations, you can even see from the nation state that like.
The nation just wants to be seen and heard and valued. So it's like a very core, fundamental human need, which. I forget who or why it came about in conversation. But when I was in my twenties, I was walking around Santa Monica with a friend and she said, I think it's remarkable that any two people can get along.
Because if you think about all of the individual experiences that have created you and crafted you and your internalization or interpretation of the different experiences that you've had, even though we can have similarities, everything's so unique that. Two people to come together to have some sort of relationship is remarkable.
And I think that in your sharing of these stories and in your experience of you becoming you and your parents becoming themselves, that it further reflects, like what a beautiful kind of tapestry that is and how complicated it can be. And I don't think that there's going to be a point where we're ever going to quote unquote, solve it.
Um, we're going to clean it up, but that story that you shared about how. Your parents would get upset at you for getting sick. It was the exact same thing as me. I didn't tell my parents that I needed glasses for the longest time, because I thought that they were going to blame me, that I was reading in the dark or whatever other reasons they told me that if I didn't listen to them, this consequences going to happen.
But I think your being able to pinpoint. That ultimately it leads to this fear of pain and, you know, the boundarylessness which with which I think a lot of Asian parents have with their children, we weren't allowed to close the door. We weren't allowed to lock the door and everything was shared so openly in very often inappropriate ways, but that, that sharing of pain, I think in that collective as culture is so.
Bury it like part of the fabric of being Asian almost. So I think that that differentiation individuation is so huge. It's what the therapist that I spoke with in a previous episode has shared as well. That that is such a challenge. So I think that, you know, these expressions of love and care are.
Different. And we're influenced by the cultures that we were raised in or by the whatever external factors that we took on. So I think that everything that you shared was so valuable and so meaningful because I feel like so many people will relate. And, you know, again, I hope that someone who's listening to this feels seen and heard in the shared experiences that you and I have had.
And also just you telling your story. So I'm curious, I have two closing questions. One you're very well read and very well studied. Are there certain books or resources that you would recommend to anybody who's curious about diving deeper things that have really made an impression on you that you'd love for people to look into.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. There's a, well, there's a lot. And these are just the first ones that comes to mind. But when it comes to the question about psychedelics and spirituality, I would say one thing that has helped me a lot, which is the Tibetan book of the dead. And it's very, it's, it's super important in terms of understanding and going deep into the idea of death, which is something very under discussed in our current society.
So that's definitely one recommendation. Another is I would, I love the book, uh, from , which is not to be confused with the first Hollywood superstar who was actually an Asian American, the Japanese American man, by the same name who was so popular with. The entire industry and women loved him, but then it was so much of a heartthrob that intimidated white men, uh, passing the law to forbid the use of any Asian man in a love story.
Huh. And so that's again, part of the racist history and sexual racism that we have forced before to take on. But another man by the same name, has a book called language in thought and action. And, you know, there's of course like Noam Chomsky, and, but no bobs is, it's a very heavy read if you want to have, if you want to pass out and fall asleep.
But linguist X is very, very helpful. That really helps. The mind to navigate thought. And it's a, he was a Canadian born Asian that became a Senator in the United States. But this book is, I think it was during the sixties, but still in a very simplistic, simple way, but clear. And I think it's important to have these kinds of basic.
Structures to think before diving into any other books. And then, you know, when it comes to like sexuality and all these other things, and they, I think there are building blocks that can come in later. But I think the fundamental basics of fathers I think is really helpful and important. That's great.
Thank you so much. And the last question that I have that I ask every guest who's been on the show is in this idea of fuck saving face and breaking through taboos and, you know, really shifting our mindset around certain things. What's one thing that you would say to fuck saving face about. I would say just fuck it.
In general, in the big Lebowski, I think it's important to not take. These constructs and myths so seriously, and it's important for us to allow sort of myths to die. And another thing that really helped me was from my friend, Tom Gilroy. And he told me when I was going through so much struggles and frustrations, he says, well, I think he took that.
He stole that from Dalai Lama, but, uh, Lego of cactus. And that was something that changed my life so much. And I think that's very much in the, in the view of fuck saving face is that it keeps reminding me you're already in pain and there's nothing more you can do that is going to get you out of it, except just to accept that.
So. I would say, just fuck it. Truly new beginnings will come from accepting that thought. Wonderful. Thank you. And if people want to follow up with you and continue on your journey, how can they connect with you? You can find me on Asian provocation. It's available on old podcast catchers. You can search for Asian provocation on Instagram or Twitter, and you can drop me a line there.
I love you. Hear from more people, uh, and open for new, uh, journeys and people, whatever they're into also loving a new conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you, Judy. As always. I love hearing from you. If you want to follow me on Instagram, it's fuck saving face without the you. And if you have any thoughts, any comments, any questions or concerns?
I often ask this about. The people closest to my life. Do you have any questions, comments, concerns, any feedback? Like I'm a little, you know, feedback box, like in Ted lasso that Nate, the great design. Also, if you were one of my friends right now, you would have heard me talk about Ted lasso. Cause I'm obsessed with that show.
I love how feel good it is. Anyhow. Ever since I started publishing articles, years and years ago, I would get emails from strangers all around the world. And it really truly means so much to me. I actually print a lot of them out and I put them on a praise wall in my walk-in closet so that when I walk in and anytime that I have doubts about myself or whatever it is that I'm doing, I look at it.
The black and white copies of the words that people have sent and remind myself that the work that I'm doing is purposeful and it does make a difference. So. If that's a helpful tip for you and you're ever questioning your purpose or moving forward in the pursuit of your dreams, which is ultimately what this podcast is all about is embracing who you are, what you want to do, regardless of the external influences around you causing more doubt or whatnot.
I encourage you to save those text messages that you get with the encouraging words from your friends and screenshot them or emails and print them out and create your own praise wall. See you in the next episode for our mindfulness practice.
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you liked what you heard and know someone in your life who might also benefit from hearing this episode, please feel free to share it with them. Also, if you'd like to support our show, you can make a one-time donation fcksavingface.com. Or, you can make a recurring donation at patreon.com/fcksavingface. That's “fck” without the “u.” Subscribe today to stay tuned for all future episodes.
