EPISODE 59: HOW TO HEAL TRAUMA WITH KJ NASRUL
MEET KJ NASRUL
Kimberly "KJ" Nasrul is a licensed psychotherapist and musician with an obsession with words.. and a gift for making grilled cheese sandwiches. She helps healers and essential frontline workers recover their resilient stories via expressive arts such as music, art journaling and compassionate conversations to prevent burnout so that they can continue to uplift and heal their communities.
When she's not planning her next traveling adventure, KJ can be found on her podcast Stories of Astonishing Light jamming with musicians, artists and trailblazers about creativity for mental wellness. She's a Psychological First Aid Responder with The Red Cross and a Quality Improvement Specialist in health privacy. She grew up roller skating along the beaches of LA County and these days, with practice, she's returning to tip top skating shape.
Connect with KJ:
Website: https://BlissBeginsWithin.com
Podcast: https://storiesofastonishinglight.buzzsprout.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/musingsonother and https://instagram.com/blissbeginswithin
On Clubhouse: @kjnasrul
Facebook: https://facebook.com/BlissBeginsWithin
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MusingsOnOther
SHOW NOTES
In this episode of the F*ck Saving Face podcast, licensed psychotherapist KJ Nasrul shares with us her insights on trauma. KJ is also a Psychological First Aid Responder with The Red Cross, helping essential frontline workers recover their resilient stories via expressive arts such as music, art journaling and compassionate conversations to prevent burnout so that they can continue to uplift and heal their communities. She has an in-depth knowledge on the topic which not only focuses on the big “T” trauma, but as well as the not-so-known small “t” trauma.
Whether consciously or unconsciously, when we experience trauma – which can range from being the victim of or witness to violence to military combat to seriously illness to accident and more – we may experience powerlessness, low self-esteem, and self-blame. How do you handle that? How do you still learn to trust, to form meaningful relationships, and to create a purpose in life?
Kimberly “KJ” Nasrul is also Asian American woman, adopted into a Caucasian family, who learned how to embrace her Asian identity through her Indonesian husband. Hear more of her story today!
We also cover:
Emily and Amelia Nagoski’s Burnout
Brene Browns’s Podcast
Man’s Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Judy Tsuei 0:00
For those of you who don't know, in 2020, I launched a program with a business partner called To Heal From A Narcissist Program. I pulled the experiences I had from my marriage and transform them into an eight week course that transformed women's lives. Then because I wanted to move on energetically, we closed the program. But the impact that it had on my life and on others continues to go on.
Judy Tsuei 0:20
It was my birthday recently, and I took a trip to the wine region and Mexico, the Guadalupe Valley. And I mentioned to my new partner how I wanted to close some stress loops. Emily and Amelia Nagasaki share about this stress cycle and an interview with Bernie brown on Bernie's podcast. Because emotions aren't linear. And because the universe loves me and wants me to heal. There was a moment on the trip that came up for the both of us that shocked me, it was small. For anyone else who didn't have the same tender points as I did for my marriage, it likely would have been a minor annoyance.
Judy Tsuei 0:52
But for me, my heart immediately dropped into my stomach and I felt the exact way I did for many years of my marriage. Then I did what I used to do to cope back then I made it my fault. I immediately apologized, I tried to make nice, I hated this. I hated that I did this. I'm about three years out from my divorce. And I've done a lot of work on my healing. And I could not believe that I immediately reverted to this old pattern set up in my childhood where the only way that I could feel safe was to make it my problem.
Judy Tsuei 1:24
My partner and I talked about it, he realized that there were things that he needed to address to we didn't wait for the next morning or the next week. We resolved at that night. But there are still things within me calling for my attention because I can feel old lingering habits that still need airtime to heal.
Judy Tsuei 1:42
This is why I'm excited to bring you today's interview with Kimberly kKJ Nasrul. She's a licensed psychotherapist and musician with an obsession for words, and a gift for making grilled cheese sandwiches. She's a psychological first aid responder with the Red Cross and a quality improvement specialist and health privacy and she helps essential frontline workers recover their resilience stories via expressive arts such as music, art, journaling, and compassionate conversations to prevent burnout so that they can continue to uplift and heal their communities.
Judy Tsuei 2:16
And burnout is one of the things that Emily and Amelia Nagurski shared in that interview with Renee, the music art journaling, compassionate conversations she's talking about was one of my favorite things about the eating disorder therapy program that I went into when I was healing my bulimia, compulsive overeating, exercising anorexia, all the things. I was in an intensive outpatient program four days a week after work. And I was in that program for about a year.
Judy Tsuei 2:45
And on each day, there were something different that we were doing so Mondays It was a process group Tuesdays, it was art Wednesday, it was movement, like yoga and meditation. And then Thursday, that was something else. So in addition to that, I also had one on one sessions with a therapist. And art therapy was always my favorite, because I cannot draw, I don't know how to draw it all. But I could collage I could make really beautiful things, be really creative with you know, whatever supplies were in front of me. That's one of the reasons I think I love interior design so much just making things look beautiful. And then from that I had this avenue and this conduit to really talk about deeper things that I had a hard time speaking about.
Judy Tsuei 3:24
It's probably similar to that technique that I read in parenting, where if you want to have a harder conversation with your children, you don't have to do it face to face looking at each other because that can be really intense. But instead you could be driving and have some music playing in the background and be next to each other side to side and then have that conversation or you know, have an activity that you're both doing in front of you coloring, a game, something like that.
Judy Tsuei 3:48
So I love that Kj has a podcast called stories of astonishing light, where she's jamming with musicians and artists and trailblazers about creativity for mental wellness. I am a guest on her podcast. And I also love that she you know really learned to embrace her Asian identity by meeting her husband. And you'll hear about that in today's episode.
Judy Tsuei 4:10
It's also interesting because she was adopted by non Asian parents, so she definitely had a very unique experience growing up in California for myriad reasons. She also kept rollerskating along the beaches of LA County and these days with practice, she's returning to tip top skating shape, which I think is remarkable. So without further ado, enjoy today's interview.
Judy Tsuei 4:39
Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast. I'm your host, Judy Tsuei, and together we'll explore mental and emotional health for Asian Americans, especially breaking through any taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Let's make your story beautiful today.
Judy Tsuei 4:56
Welcome back to the fuck saving face podcast where We will be talking about trauma today. And before you get scared and go away, I want to mention that trauma can happen with a lowercase t as much as an uppercase t. So, you know, that was hugely clarifying to me when I was doing my yoga teacher training that I didn't realize all of these, you know, for you, if you're listening to this, and you are a part of a marginalized population, the microaggressions that you experienced, those could all be considered traumas with a tiny t, just the things that you go through on a daily basis.
Judy Tsuei 5:27
And we all go through this. It's not like you know, one of us is exempt from this just being human, you have these experiences, but some of us obviously have experienced much more trauma than others. So today, I have Kj Nasrul here She is the founder of bliss begins within and she's a psycho therapist. But more interesting lead to me when we got on the phone was that she is a psychological first aid responder, which just was huge to me, because I'm always fascinated by people who put themselves at the heart of challenging situations.
Judy Tsuei 5:56
I think most people are conflict avoidant. And so for people who go actively seek and then to be of service is really incredible. And so we're going to be exploring all of that. And ideally, you'll walk away with a better understanding of maybe something that you've been experiencing that you didn't have words to name. And hopefully that will be helpful. And maybe there will also be, you know, a tip or two or an insight that you can take. So I'm going to turn it over to Kj for you to share, you know a bit about your story and how you culturally identify as well. You have a fascinating story there, too.
KJ Nasrul 6:29
I was just like, Oh, I had to pause there for a second. I was like, Oh, that's the question, isn't it? Thank you. Thank you, Judy, by the way for having me. I am so excited to be here. I am such a fan of what you do your work and your podcasts. So yeah, I'm just thrilled. I wanted to say that first and foremost, of course. Okay, well, so story time. Oh, gosh. So maybe I'll start with the last question you asked, culturally, my cultural identification. And that's been very, very interesting because I on this surface, and obviously a bipoc woman, I am a biracial woman, Filipina and Puerto Rican, although that both of those may or may not be obvious. And I actually only learned about the second of my races and a fairly recently.
KJ Nasrul 7:24
I was 21-22 years old when I learned that my bio father My birth father, because I am adopted as well. That's the other piece of it. My birth father is Puerto Rican of Puerto Rican descent. And it's my birth mother who is Filipina. And so what makes it a little more complex and interesting is that I didn't identify with either of the races that I learned I was because I was raised in a Caucasians, Swiss German household in California, in LA of all places as well. So I wouldn't have exposure, I didn't have exposure to either one of my cultures.
KJ Nasrul 8:03
So if someone were to ask me, maybe even as as recently as five years ago, like how would you culturally identify? No, honestly, maybe last year, how I culturally identified I there would be a pause. And then I would say, a shitload of things like I just did with you. But it would mostly be like, I'm a woman from California, you know, and that's how I would start. And then when I would see the pauses, or the sort of the puzzled looks on people's faces, or they but do that, that's not what I meant. But they don't know how to say that's not what I meant. They want to know what this is. And I'm, for those who can't see, obviously, I'm gesturing to my face.
KJ Nasrul 8:48
So, now I would say that I am, depending on the sass of the day, I am either Puerto Pina or fil a Rican. And I describe myself as a seeker and an artist. I'm a therapist, I am a wife. And I'm trying to figure it all out. And I can't go.
Judy Tsuei 9:15
Yeah, I didn't mean to interrupt. But speaking of wife, you told me when we first connected is that you learn about your Asian heritage from your husband, who is himself an immigrant. So can you speak about that?
KJ Nasrul 9:28
Yes, yes, of course. It's such an interesting story is one of those things where like, I'm not being arrogant. I honestly think we have the best story. It's gonna be made into a book and then a movie at one point, but my husband is from Indonesia, and he is from Indonesia. Like he only came here to America to marry me. I'm such a lucky girl that way. But so if I wanted to, or if I had any questions around what it's like to be a part of a Southeast Asian family, I know now because of my husband. It's not because My own upbringing, as I said, I was raised by a white California household and parents.
KJ Nasrul 10:05
So what I've learned now in my being with my husband, for now, 14 years, anything I've learned, not anything, but a lot of what I've learned about the dynamics and the cultural aspects of being an Asian person is certainly an Asian person who's an immigrant. In this country, it's been because of my husband and learning and moving back and forth. I didn't ever live there. But I've been to Indonesia to spend time with my in laws a lot. And so I have stories just stories of the the cultural miscommunications and assumptions that are made, because on some respect, they my family, my my in laws, look to me, but not for for learning about what it's like to be an Asian American, they look to me to tell them what it's like to be American. So, so that there's an interesting exchange, there.
Judy Tsuei 11:00
Are so many questions that I want to follow up with you like one How did you meet if you met him in Indonesia? to like, what was it like to be adopted into a, you know, a white family? And like, I imagine there must have been so many experiences of you growing up where you're like, these are my parents, and people are like, What are you talking about, or just your cultural lens, because, you know, both the family that you were raised by, and then also, we had talked before about, like, when you've gone back to Asia, you're also not Asian, because anybody who's like wasn't born in Asia, you're still seen as an outsider. And then when the world interacts with you, it's a completely different experience to because they just automatically see your facial, you know, makeup, and like how you are and assume you're one thing so, yes. Is that what propelled you into psychotherapy?
KJ Nasrul 11:45
Like, how do I wrap that up in from it? I think, yes, that's a really short answer. Because and I think it's beautiful the way that you mentioned, let's, let's define what trauma could be. And it's everything from a big t trauma of of what's known commonly say, like war, accidents, violence, and then there's little t traumas, which are the micro aggressions, the the dismissals, the judgments, the criticisms, the the small abandonments you right? And so my answer is that I've experienced all of the above the big t in the little t.
KJ Nasrul 12:25
And I've been always very, very curious about where this longing inside me, which I never had words for no, and I'm only finding now as a writer and as a therapist, and as a podcaster, what words to use around it. But there was always this longing and trying to figure out where I fit in, where some of the loneliness came from, where some of the sadnesses and feelings of shame came from. And you and I spoke about this when we last connected, like I did not feel for the first I'd say 20 years of my life, I did not feel pretty or attractive. So I had to think about what is defined as what is valued as beautiful or wanted. And so I was trying to find answers, or at least some language around all of these uncategorizable and, and language feelings that I experienced while growing up.
Judy Tsuei 13:25
Yeah. And I think that you're bringing home a point that's really close to my heart is that the reason that I write and share the way I do, I just spoke with someone this morning, who said, I really appreciate your authenticity and your vulnerability, because there's always something that I can take away from that. And it's not like what else you see on social media. We joked on another call this morning that I had with a couple of mentors that you know, what you see on social media isn't real. And usually if someone's going through an even harder time, then they try to make the image look better. And yeah, you and I had searched about.
Judy Tsuei 13:55
Yeah, that sociologist who's quoted in Jay Shetty book, who says, like, I am not who I think I am, I am not who you think I am, I am who I think you think I am. So we're just constantly projecting but not having the words to be able to express this and then you know, not knowing the concepts or like, code switching has become a term recently. And so that was like, Oh my God, that's something that I've done all my life. Now that I have an anchor word to it, I can like start to grasp and define it a little bit better, I can start to do research about it and like understand, like, how does that apply to me? What you know, is that a normal thing or like normal, quote, unquote, but I think that this is why we talk and we share.
Judy Tsuei 14:36
You know, in Hawaii, you and I mentioned, we both have a connection to Hawaii, but in Hawaii, they talk about conversation, it's called talk story, because that is what you are doing. You are sharing stories with one another and this is how we make meaning of our lives. And you know, this is how we like I just was thinking as you were talking about Helen Keller and how she didn't have a way to express herself and so she acted animalistic, because What else was she going to do? And she finally figured out a way to say like the feelings that she had to like, put something to it. So for anybody who's listening, I think this is also why, you know, journaling is so helpful. Why speaking to a therapist is so helpful? Why exploring different modalities of what can help you heal through some of the traumas that you were talking about? Can you speak to this psychological first aid responder?
KJ Nasrul 15:28
Yes, it's actually a perfect segue about finding language and identifying first and foremost that something actually occurred. So the biggest component from psychological first aid, I call it in my mind, and when I present and teach on it, I'm an instructor and a teacher through Red Cross. And so I'll I'll teach this as well. And it's it's literally human nature 101, and it's communication 101. And it's identifying that something actually did occur. So you know, how we spoke a little bit about microaggressions. And like there while growing up, and even now as adults, we're like, did that just happen? Or did I just miss perceive that tone? Or you and I had an exchange also where like, someone had asked a question, and you were like, later, as you walked away, you were like, was she asking that question? Because of A or B?
KJ Nasrul 16:22
Yeah. And so what psychological first aid does, it literally comes down to the basics of First of all, did that just happen? If it did happen? Was that real? And what do I need to do to be in the moment and acknowledge that it happened? And so I'm going to boil it down to superduper superduper? Basic, which is that say, so I've been out on I've been in the field being as a responder to natural, let's say, a natural disaster, a tornado. And so I'm in the field, and I'm walking up to people who are trying to clean up what's left of their house that has just been demolished by a tornado.
KJ Nasrul 17:05
And instead of moving into the, what's the next plan, how are we going to rebuild? What do we need to do to clean up the first thing I do when I meet with people as a psychological first aid, I mixed all as a responder a disaster responder, I walk up and ask if they would like to have a drink of water. I asked if they would like to sit down.
KJ Nasrul 17:30
Because a lot of times people spring into action, do not take into account the enormity of what just happened, whether it's big t or little t, and in this case, this is a big tea, their house was just destroyed. Animals, pets were killed big tea, can we just first take a moment to drink some water? Sit down and take some breaths together? I don't need any other explanations to that. And so there is a six hour course that I teach about this basic human nature. How do we connect one on one? How do we hear each other one on one, because the number one way to start healing trauma and to start healing pain is to acknowledge that it has occurred in the first place, instead of running away from it turning away from it.
KJ Nasrul 18:18
And it's a natural thing to do to either avoid it or get busy enough so that you're not thinking about what just happened. But just as important, if not more is acknowledging that it happened at all. So if I were with you, in that event, where you were wondering if someone was actually making some sort of racial comments, or they were trying to basically discredit you for some way, I would have been there saying no, you're absolutely right. You heard that correctly. I heard that tone as well. And just the acknowledgement, and just holding it in that moment.
KJ Nasrul 18:54
That's number one step. So psychological first aid responding. I've jacked up the name and number of my look at my badge to see what it actually is called. It's all of those words. But it literally is responding to what just happened. And it doesn't matter if it is a certifiable actual trauma or event if I've perceived that there was a threat to my safety or integrity. And I am not responding to it or I've not acknowledged a response, a natural response to it. That alone can be traumatic. That is trauma.
Judy Tsuei 19:37
I mean, as you're talking I keep thinking about just parenting comes into play. Oh yeah. Relationship dynamics, you know, so often, I think that it's hard and uncomfortable to hold space as someone is also going through something hard and uncomfortable. So the easier thing to do is be like what's wrong like? You know why? Why don't you just get over it like it's fine. Yeah. Create, yeah, to get over it or, you know, I wrote down gaslighting because I feel like yes, that happens a lot, whether purposely or inadvertently the gaslighting, I don't understand what you're talking about, like, why is it a big deal?
Judy Tsuei 20:12
And so I feel like, you know, people often give me the feedback that they feel very safe speaking with me, they feel like there's no judgement, because I just look at them. And I think, well, it's valid to you. So if it's valid to you, it is a valid thing. Whether or not I think it's valid is irrelevant, like, unless it's, you know, obviously, there's like spectrums of this practice. There are like extremes to either end. But yes, I think for the most part, a kindness that we can do for ourselves and for someone else, as you're saying right now is to just take a beat, just take a moment and just acknowledge, like, whether or not this is logical, rational or justified, I feel in this moment. That's right. This is what it feels like. That's right. So I'm just gonna take a moment and feel that.
KJ Nasrul 20:58
Feeling it and then use it something that's key, that's also a piece of being a responder in this moment, is the environment of safety. I probably won't tell you how I'm feeling or even pause if I don't feel like you're going to hold that space and feel that it's credible. The minute that you might like I'd said, discredit me, or dismiss me or downplay. For me, that is a safety issue. Why would I be quiet with somebody who isn't allowing for the quiet that they're actually trying to push it away? By bringing it and making it lesser than gaslighting? That's not as important as you think it is. That's not as impactful or as as dangerous, as you think it is. Instead of saying, oh, oh, my gosh, that sounds like it was extremely hard for you, or not even saying anything at all. There is a safety component and being silent together as well. Right?
Judy Tsuei 22:01
I love that you're saying that because I don't think that that is highlighted enough that there is a safety component and being able to just be still I think that that's why when I used to practice Reiki with clients, that they could just feel so surrendered in the moment, because we are two adults in a shared space, there needs to be no conversation that's being had.
Judy Tsuei 22:20
And I think also, you know, we're keeping our clothes on, I think massage is one form of healing, but you're in a very vulnerable space, one person has closed, not. So when you're both closed and like this, you know, environment where I don't necessarily even need to place my hands on you. I can just like, you know, be around you be in that space. I don't know of any other time as adults, that we genuinely give ourselves that opportunity to do that to like, just be around another adult and not say anything about it and not.
KJ Nasrul 22:49
Absolutely. Have you ever noticed that when you have some news to share? You might go through in your mind who you'd like to call first? Or who you might want to share that news?
Judy Tsuei 23:01
Oh, yeah, for sure.
KJ Nasrul 23:02
It's the same thing, who would hold me in this space. And that's not to say that someone's better than the other. But there certainly is a degree of intimacy and safety Enos in sharing anything that might be personal. So whether it's about, Hey, I got a job promotion all the way to Hey, something really, really scary and bad happened to me, I need to know that you're gonna hold the space for me. We do because of cues and exchanges and interactions we've had we know who that receiver who the best receiver will be.
Judy Tsuei 23:38
That's so interesting. Yeah, I love that you're saying that because in the relationship that I'm in, one of the things that we've explored is the fact that, you know, I'm a super connector. So I have a lot of people in my life, and because of the willingness that I have to be transparent and open, then they are also willing to do that with me. So I have deep connections with a lot of people. And I know exactly when something happens, who I'm going to call and who I'm going to reach out to. And it's not that I don't want to reach out to him. It's just more like, in my mind, I've already been trained like this person can do this, this person can do this.
Judy Tsuei 24:08
And so we've actually had to have a conversation about like, well, how can I more practice that with him? And one of the things that my friend shared with me, and she's a teacher, and I loved the way that she put it because I think that another thing that we don't do is we don't often set ourselves up for success. We don't put like the systems and the frameworks in place to help support and make things easier. And so, you know, she was saying like, Well, why don't you have a conversation with him and ask like, what are the ways that you support someone best?
Judy Tsuei 24:37
How do you support people best and then you can practice relying upon him for that. And then after that, you know, then start to see if you can start to broaden that into other areas, but part of it is just because intimate relationships with me have felt like so volatile for so long, and there's been so many violations that have happened. So I think in my mind, I've caught Later this person equals intimate relationship equals this potential, you know, downfall or whatever.
Judy Tsuei 25:05
And so it's just to say that there's, well, first, I'm glad to hear that it's normal that you compartmentalize and like, you know, think like, I will go to this person this, but to just that, again, you know, we are all learning and growing. So it's not like there's some endpoint that we're going to get to. And I love what you said that the first thing is just, you know, creating that space, and just giving them some water and giving them a place to sit.
Judy Tsuei 25:29
And then so like in everyday life, when we start to experience some of these other, you know, which is going to be a very broad generalized question, because so many incidents could be so different, and each person is going to respond so differently. Very true. But are there tips and tools that you can offer that as we are going through those that we can kind of, I don't know, mitigate the impact, or just learn how to navigate because they're never gonna stop? I was just saying this morning. It's so weird that we are trying to heal other traumas every day, we're experiencing something new, like so it's like a perpetual flow. What would you say to that?
KJ Nasrul 26:11
Yes. Well, first of all, I wanted to agree wholeheartedly. There is actually such thing as chronic and complex trauma, because of the repetition and the frequency in which you experience it. And again, that really doesn't matter as much that, that there's little t trauma and big t trauma is that it's constantly happening, and it doesn't seem to stop. How is it that we're able to even process what just happened 30 minutes ago, when we're still reeling from what happened yesterday. And there just never seems to be that break.
KJ Nasrul 26:46
So I just wanted to acknowledge what you'd said there as well, that there is the possibility that there is not a break. And then there isn't enough, enough time or space to truly process and grieve and address. What's happened, however, might sound like a broken record here. But there is a way to become present. And there is a way to again, find that pause. There's a couple places I'm coming from with my answer.
KJ Nasrul 27:11
There is a neurologist called Viktor Frankl, he wrote a book called Man's Search for Meaning. And what's interesting about him is that he is a neurosurgeon. He was an neuroscientist, he was an MD. And what he did was, well, a number of things that he did, but basically, he was in Auschwitz, in the internment camps, and he lost everybody, his pregnant wife, his, his siblings, his cousins, his parents, in the concentration camps. And yet, he still was able to come on the other side of it going, I've survived. And this is how and I still have a positive idea of what this world could be.
KJ Nasrul 27:52
And so you want to talk about someone who's experienced trauma. I mean, this man, I'd say, has all the credibility in the world. And what he came up with is that the suffering, the suffering may not ever stop, there might always be something painful and traumatic happening in our lives, but we have the opportunity to choose how to respond to it. So basic tips and tricks around how to navigate can be brought back to what we learned in yoga, and in meditation practices, which is taking five seconds to do an inhale, a pause, and an exhale, so that you can remind your body that well, everything had happened and more things are going to happen in this moment, we can pause.
KJ Nasrul 28:41
And we can we can we can connect again with our physical somas and say I am here right now, how am I going to choose the next five seconds. So pausing, breathing, small movements, if that also means just putting your arms overhead to do a stretch. There's been a lot of research from also neuroscientists who have discovered that it's nearly if not 100%, impossible to be stressed or anxious if you are physically moving, and in the present moment, if you were concentrating on something that is happening, let's say I'm painting my nails, and I'm concentrating on keeping that goddamn color still on my name, and not getting on the cuticles for that inch of a second that in a second, I am more concerned about how I'm going to keep my color on my nails than I am about the next traumatic or scary thing that's going to come down the light or the next bill that I need to try to find and pay.
KJ Nasrul 29:49
If we can be present and be working in these quiet, but also small and miniscule spaces. It's actually that's our way of generating generating A little bit of a break that pause, in the suffering in the whirlwind in the chaos.
Judy Tsuei 30:07
I love what you're saying, because it can be small. I think that so often I was just having a conversation with a friend. And you know, she's in this dynamic that it's apparent to her and to others around her who care for her that she needs to get out of this dynamic. So as we're talking, she's like, Yes, I realize I need to set healthier boundaries and need to do this. I'm like, okay, those are all big things. But when you are in that moment, and you're being triggered by this experience, or this person, that's not we're going to be thinking about is that I need to uphold healthier boundaries.
Judy Tsuei 30:35
Because you're not in your rational brain any longer. You're in your primal brain. That's right. So that's what the kids are getting into when they start having meltdowns and whatever, like, there's no way to rationalize with them, because they're, they're just not even accessing that part of the brain. Know, for this, you know, so I told her, like, Can you just write down on a piece of paper that you can keep close the literal actual things that you will do in that moment? Like, what are you going to do in the next five minutes? And so I love what you're saying is just Yeah, like, stay focused on that teeny tiny bit? And that can be monumentally important and helpful.
KJ Nasrul 31:10
Exactly. There's something around, say progressive muscle relaxation exercises. If I am asking you for a moment to concentrate on the right side of your pinky toe. There's two seconds, maybe not that long. I don't know where we're going to pause a second and everything and be like, yeah, where is my right side? pinky toe? Where is my foot right now, for God's sake, you know, it's moments like that. Whereas you can remove yourself from the situation, you can remove yourself from the stressor, you can choose to, at the very least, like I said, Take five seconds to see where am i right now in the here and now. So that this here, and now person can now make the next decision or the next move?
Judy Tsuei 31:57
And then after that, do you just make the next choice? Is it the next like, right best choice that you can make?
KJ Nasrul 32:03
It's at least clear, it's a more holistic, it's a whole body experience, instead of just an impulse, I think it's a little more informed to make a decision like that. Here's where it gets fun, too. We mentioned a couple things right now, it could be breathing, it could be a progressive muscle relaxation. But there's a whole bunch of different ways that are specific to who we are as individuals, that can get us to the pause for me as listening to music.
KJ Nasrul 32:32
You had suggested to a friend and or client to concentrate on writing down for a few minutes. So if that means that my suggestion is to pick what feels most aligned with you, what is your most natural draw, so for me it is to dance, it's to move, but also I like to listen to music. So if I know that I can feel that I'm spiraling out, or I need a moment, or I'm feeling overwhelmed when I put on some music and just kind of shake and dance for a few minutes. Again, it doesn't have to be an hour, it doesn't even have to be 10 minutes. But give yourself a moment to shake for five minutes, there will be a more informed and centered place from which you can make a decision between start dancing. And when you stop dancing.
Judy Tsuei 33:21
Well, one of my friends wrote a book called Call of the Wild. And she was saying that wild animals, they don't carry stress with them know from moment to moment, because they're very present. And also if they do experience a stressful moment, so say, like, some animal comes and tries to attack them, but they're able to get away, they do take that time to literally like shake and shake it out of their system.
Judy Tsuei 33:43
And it was just such a great like, you know, visceral understanding, we are all animals as well. So like, it's no wonder that that makes sense. And we just in our modern day, are just like, I'm just gonna muscle through it, because I have the power of my brain to try to push myself into the next thing so that, you know, I can get into that next thing. Yeah, I'm curious for you because of the trauma that you've worked with. How do you maintain like a healthy self care? If you have that? How do you avoid that kind of burnout?
KJ Nasrul 34:11
Girl, you're after my own heart with that question. A lot of it has to do with who I choose to be in my safety circle. As we've talked about, who in my line of list Am I going to talk to or connect with after I've had a particularly challenging conversation with a client or something, get something that may be triggered or brought up my own stuff. So I know right away, I've got three people ish that I know could be in my dial a friend, dial a friend unit so I know who I can talk to at any time of any point of the day.
KJ Nasrul 34:51
I also engage in physical breaks. So let's say I've got a back to back day. I build in 10 minutes. In between, and I get up and I shake, I get up and I do some stretching. And that's more immediate. That's again, to complete almost my response process. It's interesting that you spoke about sort of our primal animalistic instincts. And they know, no one has to tell them, they don't have to overanalyze to shake things off, or to like, let out a good old rule or you know to move it.
KJ Nasrul 35:25
So I kind of go back to that piece as well, I'll shake, I'll make some noise, I'll, I'll stretch it out, I'll listen to music. And then at the end of the day, I actually build in, I have enough in me to know that by the end of the day, oh, one of the big things is that I keep my boundaries, I don't go over, if I'm going to work until five o'clock, I am done at five o'clock. I will not move past that, because of the integrity and the agreement that I've made.
KJ Nasrul 35:53
So it's a holding my agreements with myself, and then it's actually scheduling in something that would be like a full on release, if that means getting to the hot springs with the spa place later that night. If it means having a great conversation and dinner with my husband, you know, we have that planned out later. But I build in ways to offer relief and comfort. And sometimes it's, it's, it's a little, it's a little s for self care. And it's a big ask for self care. But a little s could literally be like I'd said, drinking a lot of water and calling my day at five o'clock. keeping those promises to myself.
Judy Tsuei 36:35
I mean, everything that you're describing is just like setting yourself up for success anticipating that like, Okay, this day is going to be packed and full. And at the end of the day, I'm going to have the person that I need there or the thing that I needed to alleviate whatever else, you know, and I think that as you're talking about boundaries, because I know that that's something that's so challenging, especially if you grew up in and meshed families where the adult and child parental child situation happens, and you don't have like a clear understanding whose role is supposed to be what, then the boundaries is so challenging.
Judy Tsuei 37:08
The other thing that we've been talking about is that there are many different access points to get to where you need to be or where you want to go. And I would really like to underscore that because you know, for what we're talking about right now, if having healthy boundaries is hard. Another way to look at it is but I want to be of service to the people that I work with. And so in order to best be of service, I need to first take care of myself, which you know, you can ask any mom, that's like a big lesson that they always say like when your child takes nap, you take a nap, and especially when they're infants, and it's like no, that's not gonna happen, I got to do this and this, and then you just keep you know, burning out.
Judy Tsuei 37:43
And so it's we're culturally created to like believe that working hard and hustling and grinding is so key. And here's a woman who I've been studying or kind of just like reading some of her stuff. And her whole ethos is the hands off CEO. So how can you build it so that you don't have to be at like the pivotal Crux point of everything if you actually want to grow and create a sustainable business? And if you want to grow and create a sustainable life, how can you do it so that you know it's not it, you get to define the terms or you get to create what it means for you.
KJ Nasrul 38:16
That's absolutely it and and defining what that means what your comfort and care practices are, they may look a little different than mine, you know, but it's just as defining and knowing what nourishes and replenishes you. And like I said, For me, it's it could be listening to music, it could be having a really cheesy, salty dinner.
Judy Tsuei 38:39
Those are good, those are good.
KJ Nasrul 38:42
And it could be a massage, like we've talked about, that's the biggest self care, like maybe maybe I go out and have this huge gesture. But again, it doesn't have to everything can be really impactful if you keep it small and concentrated and no drama just let's see what's happening in this five second window right now.
Judy Tsuei 39:02
So as we're closing this interview, I want to ask you the question that I asked all my guests, which is along this idea of fuck saving face and breaking through taboos, what's something that you would like to shine a light on? What's a truth that you wish people would know? Or examine or just some sort of key takeaway that you want to offer? And, yeah, give it to people who are listening.
KJ Nasrul 39:28
So good. Questions, so many answers, so many answers. But for today, there's a lot of wisdom and healing in in the listening for the pause, that we can slow down and in fact, that might be exactly what we're needing to truly start the healing process is to stop, pause. Listen, notice. And maybe that's all we need to do. Before we can make our next informed move.
Judy Tsuei 40:00
I love that I love it so much. I love it so much, partly because when I was growing up, my mom was like, constantly encouraging us to multitask to the nth degree, thank you. And it was like, you better make use of every single moment of your time. So if you're here, doing this thing, and then like, let's say you've like, you know, set the clothes for the wash, and then the washing machine is going and as you're waiting for that to go, then you can go do this other thing.
Judy Tsuei 40:26
And as you're doing that, you can do this other thing. And so that's how I was trained, because lazy was seen as like, the worst possible thing that you could be. But I think that there was some sort of mis conception about laziness, like, I have had adult, you know, like, partners or friends Look at me, and they're like, you can just stop you know, that, like, you can just like, chill out, and sit here and watch a show. And I'm like, Wait, what? Like, cuz, you know, I got berated for that before. Like, I could do that.
KJ Nasrul 40:55
There's shame around. Yeah, it's relaxing. Yes, yes, no, I love that so much. I was also going to add an make an addendum, which is that it doesn't have to be hard. It can be easy. And it can be small. Like we'd said, these small gestures can be just as impactful if not more so. And that the resting and the ease and the pause, it's actually still a part of the same cycle, you referenced it, we could not be of service, we cannot have our energy at our optimal pace.
KJ Nasrul 41:29
And availability. If we have no energy left in our in our tanks, have no way to show up anymore, because we are so goddamn tired. So it's actually the more you insert and make time for these breaks and pauses and rests, the more optimal you'll be and the more successful you'll be. And that's your messaging. You are showing others that that's okay to do it.
Judy Tsuei 41:58
I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. If people want to follow up with you, where can they find you?
KJ Nasrul 42:03
Oh, thank you for having me. They can find me in a number of different ways. Instagram, you can find me at bliss begins within. I have a podcast called stories of astonishing lives. So you are going to listen to that you and I had a conversation which will be airing hopefully soon to that people who follow up on with that. So yeah, and then I You can also find me at blissbeginswithin[dot]com.
Judy Tsuei 42:31
Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. I hope that you got as much out of that interview as the time that I spent with Kj. It was an incredible heartwarming opportunity to truly Connect. And you know, when you meet those people in your life, who really get you and who really see you, it's a very remarkable gift. So I hope that you know that in your life. There are people who see you and who get you and hopefully by hearing the stories throughout this podcast in season one thus far, you've heard other people who get you and resonate with you, including myself.
Judy Tsuei 43:06
I look forward to see you on Friday for our mindfulness practice.
Judy Tsuei 43:11
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
