EP 99: How Asian American women can take ownership of their finances with Mary Li
As the host of the F*ck Saving Face podcast, Judy Tsuei had the pleasure of engaging in a profound conversation with Money Mindset Coach, Mary Li. Judy is the founder of Wild Hearted Words, a strategic branding and content marketing agency. Both women have unique experiences with money, and they share their insights on how our relationship with money can shape our lives.
In today’s personal essay + mindfulness episode, Judy + Mary cover these topics:
Growing Up with a Scarcity Mindset
Both Judy and Mary grew up in immigrant families where money was scarce. This scarcity led to a fear and scarcity mindset around finances, which still affects them as adults. Judy shared her journey of learning about money, including her experience with crypto and investing. Mary, who started working at a young age due to financial struggles in her family, emphasized the powerful emotions that Asian Americans often feel around money, such as guilt, shame, and anxiety.
The Irony of Money Mindset
Mary shared an ironic twist in her career. Despite advising Fortune 500 companies on resource allocation, she didn't invest her own money. She believes that our beliefs and values around money are formed at a young age, around seven years old. Judy agreed and mentioned that she is trying to create a different understanding of money for her daughter.
The Importance of Awareness in Changing Our Money Mindset
Judy + Mary discussed the importance of awareness in changing their money mindset. Mary emphasized the need to observe our thoughts and beliefs about money without judgment. She suggested keeping a daily journal to track these thoughts and examine the underlying beliefs that drive our behaviors.
Aligning Our Values with Our Actions
We also discussed the importance of aligning our values with our actions and finding fulfillment in our lives. Mary shared her own experience of achieving financial success and living in desirable cities, only to realize that she was still deeply unhappy and unfulfilled. We emphasize the need to be honest with ourselves and examine the way we make and spend money in accordance with our core values.
Expressing Gratitude
Expressing gratitude is another key aspect we discussed. We highlight the evolutionary tendency to always want more but suggest reframing our mindset to focus on what we already have. We encourage listeners to appreciate the things they may be taking for granted, such as living in a beautiful neighborhood or having deep connections with others.
Financial Empowerment for Women
We highlight the societal pressure for women to give away their financial power and the lack of resources that trap people in unhealthy situations. Mary reveals that many of the highly educated and successful women she coaches rely on their husbands to manage their money. We stress the importance of breaking the taboo around money and having open conversations about it.
Teaching Children About Money
We discuss the importance of teaching children about money and financial responsibility. Mary shares how she uses a finance box with her daughter, which includes sections for saving, giving, and investing, to teach her about different financial choices and their consequences.
Marriage and Its Financial Implications
We discuss how money differences can be a major cause of divorce and the importance of understanding one's own money values and beliefs before entering into a committed relationship. Mary emphasizes the need for individuals to do the inner work and reflect on their beliefs and values around money to have productive conversations with their partners.
The Importance of Self-Worth and Self-Reflection
We conclude by highlighting the importance of self-worth and self-reflection in one's relationship with money. Mary emphasized that our relationship with ourselves is the foundation for all other relationships, including our relationship with money. She encouraged individuals to do the work to release limiting beliefs.
Ultimately our conversation was a deep dive into the complex relationship we have with money. It was a reminder that our money stories are not just about numbers, but about our values, beliefs, and experiences. By rewriting our money stories and aligning our actions with our core values, we can lead to a healthier and more fulfilling relationship with money.
Episode Highlights:
Shift Your Mindset Challenge [00:01:07] A seven-day challenge to shift your mindset and make daily choices for happiness and success.
The Importance of Money Mindset [00:02:17] Discussion on the importance of money mindset and personal experiences with money struggles and fear.
Mary Lee's Story and Work [00:06:35] Mary Lee, a money mindset coach, shares her personal story and how she got into the work of helping others with money mindset.
The formation of money beliefs at a young age [00:08:46] Discussion on how money beliefs are formed during childhood and the impact of subconscious wiring.
The importance of awareness in changing money mindset [00:10:15] Exploration of the role of conscious awareness in identifying and challenging money-related thoughts and beliefs.
Examining core values and aligning with money practices [00:15:58] Conversation about the significance of understanding personal core values and aligning them with earning and spending money.
Understanding Core Values [00:17:50] The speaker discusses the importance of examining and articulating personal values and questioning societal expectations for happiness.
Expressing Gratitude [00:19:32] The speaker emphasizes the practice of expressing gratitude as a way to shift focus from what is lacking to what is already present.
Aligning Money and Fulfillment [00:22:12] The speaker reflects on the alignment between making money, spending money, and finding fulfillment, and discusses the importance of understanding personal core values in relationships and life decisions.
The lack of resources and turning over financial power [00:25:44] Discussion on the devastating impact of not having resources and turning over financial power to someone else.
Women and money mindset [00:26:50] Exploration of how many highly educated women do not manage their own money and the societal conditioning that leads to this.
The importance of talking about money and having a growth mindset [00:28:15] Emphasis on the need to openly discuss money, overcome shame and fear, and adopt a growth mindset to learn and grow financially.
Teaching children about finances [00:33:44] Explaining the importance of saving, giving, and investing money to children using a finance box.
The significance of marriage and finances [00:35:24] Discussing the financial implications of marriage and how it affects individuals' decisions to remarry.
The importance of self-worth in financial success [00:39:13] Highlighting the connection between self-worth, beliefs, and financial success, emphasizing the need to work on oneself.
Links Mentioned:
Overcoming Challenges and Traumas Through Mindset Shifts and Manifestation Masterclass
Facebook Group for additional insights and value during the challenge
Free Live Seven-Day Challenge: Ultimate Life Reset in less than 10 minutes a day
There may be affiliate links included in this blog post.
Transcript:
Judy Tsuei (00:00:02) - Welcome to the F*ck Saving Face podcast, where we're empowering mental and emotional health for Asian Americans and voices of color by breaking through taboo topics. Life may not always be pretty, but it is indeed beautiful. Make your story beautiful today. In case you're new to this show, my name is Judy Tsui and I'm the founder of Wild Hearted Words. We are a strategic branding and content marketing agency, and we focus on working with female entrepreneurs of color to create sustainable six figure success. If you'd like to experience what it's like to work with me, you can sign up for my latest masterclass that's available on my website at Wild Hearted Words. Com Forward slash shop. It's called Overcoming Challenges and Traumas Through Mindset Shifts and Manifestation. And when you sign up for the audio course, that's about an hour, you'll also get a bonus PDF filled with incredible affirmations that you can practice every day to welcome in the life you'd like to have. For a limited time, the course is now only $19. Again, go to Wild Hearted Words.
Judy Tsuei (00:01:07) - Com forward slash shop. Now on to the episode. Are you ready to rewrite your reality? Join me in an upcoming free live seven day challenge. It's the ultimate life reset. In less than ten minutes a day, you can free yourself from blocks and shift your thinking. You'll learn how to make easy daily choices that will lead you to the happiness and success you desire. Directly to your inbox. So if you want to sign up, just go to wild hearted words. Dot com forward slash rewrite. That's r e w r i t e. And you can join. It's absolutely free. You'll also get access to my Facebook group where I'll show up every day during this challenge with additional insights and offer even more value. I've done these mini masterminds and challenges before and you can go to the website and see what kind of results other people have gotten. This challenge is designed to be fun and engaging, and it will help you to create powerful results in any area of your life by using tools you already hold within you, you'll be able to have the sense of gaining complete control over the direction that the rest of your life takes.
Judy Tsuei (00:02:17) - Here's what you can expect. After seven days, you're going to shift your mindset to free yourself of baggage limitations and pain. So things finally feel easier. You'll find out the secret force that requires only a mini contribution from you, yet gives you a massive return. You'll unlock the formula of the natural progression to success, and you'll learn what only 5% of people know to achieve the level of fulfillment everyone hopes for. So this challenge is going to be live, kicking off on Monday, September 4th, for seven days. After that, you're more than welcome if you're listening to this podcast episode. After that time, after those dates to continue to sign up and you'll get those messages still delivered directly to your inbox and you'll still get an invite into the Facebook group. I look forward to meeting you. So today's guest is going to be talking about money and specifically money mindset. And the reason that I think that this is so important is because, well, first of all, we all use money as in exchange for the things that we need and want in life.
Judy Tsuei (00:03:24) - And, you know, for me, growing up with immigrant parents who very much struggled with money to the point that, you know, our phone line was cut off at some point when I was younger. And when you're a teenager, when you're in junior high, and that is a lifeline that you have for your friends, having it cut off is terrible. But then also having to try to skirt around how you're going to explain that to someone, you know, and just the feeling of fear that I always had around money to the point that when I got my first full time job, like I had been working 2 to 3 jobs since I was 15 to pay my own way to SAT courses, my college applications, you know, my college tuition, all of those things. But part of it was just this fear that I never wanted to be in the situation that my parents were in. And then yet, you know, I still wasn't learning about money. I just was thinking, I don't want to be in that much debt and just terrified because that was the only thing that my parents would ever talk about is money, money, money.
Judy Tsuei (00:04:14) - How much they didn't have. We were constantly around very wealthy people because my dad has a construction business and so he's building these ponds and custom tanks and like landscaping and houses and restaurants. And so we are seeing this wealth and opulence that we can't have or like we didn't have at the time. And, you know, kind of like the shoemaker has the worst shoes, Like my dad was building these amazing things so I could see what he was doing. And at home, literally, we had holes in the floor that I would like fall into. And so it took a lot. And then also, I think the thing that was surprising for me is that because I didn't learn about the premise of money, like I was freelancing in my mid 20s, I was making so much money every day. I didn't know anything except for maybe get a financial advisor. So I had all this money that I was able to live for ten years, like pursuing a yoga teacher training instead and like doing all these things.
Judy Tsuei (00:05:07) - But when it come down to it and I got married, I thought, well, we're just going to combine finances and that's how it's going to be. And then that got me in a ton of trouble because then I got in so much debt. So I ended up in like the exact same position. I feel like that my parents had been in. And so I had a new lens to see how quickly that can happen. Oppressive. It can be how scary it can be. And then with all of that, like I finally was just like, wait a minute, I need to actually learn about like what money is. And I think with like crypto and, you know, with the traditional ways of trying to learn about finance, my brain just was very overwhelmed. It couldn't figure it out. But for some reason when I learned about crypto, I was like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense to me. And through that back end channel, I was able to learn so much about like investing and understanding like an array of things about money.
Judy Tsuei (00:05:55) - But it took, you know, getting to a high that I didn't even know was a high hitting a low that I didn't even know. Like, you know what, how I was going to pay for us to, like, move back from Taiwan and like all that kind of stuff to where I am now. So it was a very long winded introduction for me to share about Mary Lee, who's a money mindset coach. We're going to talk today about just your story, how you got into this work, kind of what you see Asian Americans grappling with, and then also the fact that you went to Harvard, which is like, you know, the gold standard for any Asian parents. So I'm going to turn it over to you to just share a bit about your story and how you got into this work.
Mary Li (00:06:35) - Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Judy. And as you were talking, I was just shaking my head because so much of what you said was very much like my own story.
Mary Li (00:06:44) - I also started working part time since I was 14. I've been sort of just working continuously, right, Because money was this scarce resource as we were growing up, especially in immigrant families. So I've never had my phone line cut off, but I definitely remember times when, you know, there's this real sense of, Oh, we're not really sure how to put food on the table or how to have a roof over our head because my dad was, you know, working and getting laid off and working, getting laid off. So that scarcity mindset and that fear that you talked about that we live with even until today, back then, it was very real, right? It was a real, real sense of fear. But exactly like you said now sort of were in our adulthood. And maybe we have gone through periods of abundance and and really have gotten enough money, right, to support our basic needs and to even buy things that we want to. But we still have this like tremendous amount of like big emotions and these powerful emotions that's really making us feel so bad.
Mary Li (00:07:48) - There's so much fear. There's so much guilt and shame, right? That's like a huge emotion amongst us, Asian-Americans, a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear. So, for example, even like, let's say, going to Costco, buying bounty, right? Which is a brand name paper towel versus buying a Costco Kirkland brand. Paper towel. Even small decisions like that used to make me feel tremendously guilty, even though logically, right. I'm doing the math. I'm like, this is like $0.50 difference, right? Like, why am I getting, like, these big emotions? Like, really take over me not in that moment, but sort of carries with me throughout the day and sometimes weeks, right at a time. So much like you, I really just didn't feel good about money and didn't feel confident. And and the most ironic thing was that, you know, as a good Asian daughter, ten years ago, I did the thing and pursued business and pursued finance and worked on Wall Street.
Mary Li (00:08:46) - Right. And then later on went to Harvard Business School and I worked in finance. My job was to advise these Fortune 500 companies on how to spend their money and resource allocation. Right? Yeah, I was exactly like you. I put all my money in cash. I just didn't. I don't even know why. Right. Like, I didn't invest my money, even though that's what I did in my line of work every single day. And you know what? Like so much of this, I really think it's this sort of subconscious wiring that we have picked up when we were kids. Right. And there's a lot of actually research, especially in the money field, that that really shows that a lot of our beliefs and our judgments and our values around money were formed at the age of seven. And do you remember when you were seven, Did you know what money was even? No, no.
Judy Tsuei (00:09:37) - And I know that when before we jumped onto this conversation, when we had our preliminary get to know you conversation, you know, I talked about the ways that I am in like hoping to create a different understanding of money for my daughter because part of what? Because she's not seven.
Judy Tsuei (00:09:52) - And I you know, I mean, even just like psychology, so many of our beliefs become cemented by the time that we're seven about everything, not just about money. So I think that that is just to be able to take a moment to go back and like rewrite those stories is super hard because you first have to be aware that that you even have those stories, that those invisible narratives are happening behind the scenes.
Mary Li (00:10:15) - Absolutely. And that is so key, right? The key is awareness is this conscious awareness that, hey, like I'm feeling guilty, I'm feeling scared, I'm feeling anxious when it comes to money, I even avoid. Right. Like a lot of people avoid actually looking their bank statements and credit cards, especially maybe like after a holiday season or after a big purchase. Right. And it's that awareness where we can then sort of pull ourselves out of these thoughts and view it from a third person perspective. And we can say like, how interesting is it that we're avoiding this thing that like, like you said, right? Like money is at the center of all decisions.
Mary Li (00:10:51) - Like we sort of think about money consciously or subconsciously every single day. So if we're able to pull ourselves out out of that scenario and view as a third person, I think that's sort of one of the techniques of just observing like what is happening. And it's through that non-judgmental observation that we're able to to be like, Ah, okay, Like I'm experiencing these like big emotions doesn't feel like it's really right, right. Like I kind of want to do something about it is yeah. With all the work that I do with my clients, like awareness is key, and that's like the first module I work with my clients on week to, to increase this awareness. And so much of our thoughts are actually like in the subconscious from right, like 95% are in subconscious. So it takes this conscious effort. So I do this daily journal with my clients where I asked them to write down, Hey, like any time like a thought about money comes up, sort of write it down and say like, you know, today, you know, I like, I use money to buy lunch.
Mary Li (00:11:53) - Right? And it sort of made me feel conflicted because I wanted this organic salad and there was a cheaper option. Right. And then the story I'm telling myself is that I don't deserve to buy like, the more expensive organic food or it's not necessary for me to buy something more expensive. So it's through that conscious effort, right, that we're really able to examine what are these like beliefs, these core beliefs and these thoughts are really driving our behaviors. So it is hard work. But like you said, right. I think we just have to remember we all have this agency, right. And we can control how we want to show up today and in the future. And just because our past was a certain way and just because, you know, sort of our money beliefs or honestly our parents money beliefs, it doesn't mean that we can't rewrite them. And when we are rewriting them, we're doing for ourselves, for the people around us and for our daughters, our sons in the next generations.
Mary Li (00:12:50) - So part of this work is really, you know, we're we're being cycle breakers and doing it for for so many generations to come. Right?
Judy Tsuei (00:12:58) - So I'm curious because, yeah, like that minute thinking every moment, every time you spend money, like it's definitely very pervasive for me. I would say that. Even though I've experienced, you know, remarkable influxes of money and then remarkable moments of very much like, you know, low cushion, I guess you could say. I feel like my relationship with money has always felt kind of the same, like it's just on my mind all of the time. And so I don't know if that's part of being an entrepreneur as well and like thinking about cash flow coming in and out. I don't know if it's partly because of the area that I live in that I live in North County, San Diego, by the coast. And, you know, it's definitely not a clear representation of the way the rest of the world lives or exists because the amount of wealth is beyond.
Judy Tsuei (00:13:51) - It's not even just a little bit. It's it's beyond. And so there's the constant comparison that I also grew up with two of my parents saying like, Oh, well, that person plays piano better than you or that person, right?
Mary Li (00:14:03) - Oh, my God.
Judy Tsuei (00:14:04) - So this constant feeling less than because, you know, in my own mind or whatever, my life doesn't look the way that I had thought it would look at this point in time. And yet at the same time, you know, I know like from a very if when you when you said like take a step back from a different objective perspective, my life looks amazing like it's and I have things that you know I think a lot of people struggle with that come really easily for me. So making connections, having a community, having, you know, really close relationships with people, I think a lot of people struggle with that. I hear that a lot from other moms, like just how are you able to have that community? Like how are you able to cultivate it? So I know I have these blessings that are not the tangible goods or whatever that you would see and that the society or my family of origin, like told me, were the valuable things you needed to have the big house and like, you know, the nice car and all of those things.
Judy Tsuei (00:14:58) - And so how do you kind of shift that? I mean, I would say it's almost like this oppressive feeling of money. I also know that I'm not alone. I've talked with my other friends about it. Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah. So I, I feel like but it does feel very lonely because it's not something that you want to be, you know, out there like sharing with people and you think you're the only person who's going through it. So one, how do you deal with that kind of like almost oppressive feeling about being preoccupied with money? And then secondly, you know, how do you deal with that comparison factor? Because I know like it's a lot about rewriting what your core values are and making sure that you're living to your core values. But for me, I always feel like I'm like in this push pull of I want both and I want it all. Like I want the I don't care about anything bohemian lifestyle. And then I want everything.
Mary Li (00:15:51) - I want a nice luxurious lifestyle, really.
Judy Tsuei (00:15:54) - Want the boho chic. So, yeah. Can you share about that?
Mary Li (00:15:58) - Yeah, absolutely. And that's such a great question. And you actually like hit it. You sort of like answer your own question, which is, you know, at the end of the day, sort of what matters to us is really like, that's really something we have to examine, right? Like how many of us really like sort of sit down and really like ask ourselves, what are our core values? How do I articulate our core values? I feel like that's sort of not an exercise that, you know, we do in school or in an exercise we do every day, right? And when there's this like oppressive or like icky feelings around money, and a lot of times it really is because there's this misalignment between how we're both making money, right? Like the way that we're earning money and the way that we're spending money. And, you know, there are a lot of people and myself included, right in the past where I was making honestly, I was making a lot of money.
Mary Li (00:16:51) - Like I went into investment banking onto Wall Street after college And and then later on, I worked in tech. There was a lot of money. But I just what I didn't realize was that there was such a misalignment between my core values and what I was doing, and that was why I was so unhappy. And that was why I got burned out, crash and burn over and over again. Right. Because of this misalignment. Same thing when it comes to spending. Right. Or social creatures. So it's very easy for us to to look at who is around us, right? Like our communities and the people out there. And it's very easy for us to say like, Oh, so-and-so has a bigger house, so-and-so has a nicer car, so-and-so has like whatever, that is better, right? And sort of like our Asian upbringing has like put that comparison mentality, like it's ingrained in us because we have been compared to so many times as we were growing up. Right? I lost my train of.
Judy Tsuei (00:17:43) - Thought, That's okay. We were talking about about the Asian upbringing and how that impacted everything, like the comparison and everything, right?
Mary Li (00:17:50) - Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so much of this is sort of coming back to your values and really examine those and really articulate those. And when you see other people have big house, right? Part of that is like sort of our conditioning. We're like, Oh, we're supposed to go to a good school and like get a good job by a big. And buy these cars. Right. But part of it is you asking yourself, do those things actually make you happy or are those the things that society tells you that once you get that, you will be happy? And I think for a lot of us and myself included, right, Like once I was able to get to that point where I was making good salary and, you know, I was like living in sort of some of the best cities like New York cities and San Francisco, right.
Mary Li (00:18:33) - In the world. But yeah, I was so still so deeply unhappy and deeply unfulfilled. And I would sort of ask our audience the same questions, right? Like, look at the things that you have and ask yourself, Does that thing really help you feel like you're aligned? Does that really help you feel fulfilled? Right. Like having that framework to really be honest with yourself rather than just doing whatever everyone else is doing? So core value is so key, right? Like understanding our core values are articulated and be honest with ourselves in looking at the way that we make money and spend money in accordance to these values and to honestly. Two is just the simple act of expressing gratitude. Because the way that we're wired, right, we always want more. This is actually evolutionary. It's in our DNA because as a species we have to survive. So we have this natural, like lacking and scarcity mentality, right? So we get more, so we're able to survive and perpetuate our species going forward.
Mary Li (00:19:32) - And again, this takes a conscious effort of rewriting and really reframing instead of asking, Oh, like what else can I get right? Why don't we like reframe that and ask ourselves, What do I already have? Right? Like you said, you have community, you have these deep connections. A lot of people envy you. Yet sometimes we still feel like we're not enough, right? So it's this act of expressing gratitude and really ask ourselves like, what are we thankful for? Like, what are these things maybe we're taking for granted? And it could be as simple as, Oh my God, I live in this like beautiful neighborhood in San Diego. A lot of people would die to live in in San Diego or like, nice weather close to the beach. Yeah, it really is this expression of gratitude that will remind us like, what do we already have? Instead of comparing ourselves to like what we don't have? The other thing is, like, other people have struggles, right? Like, we just don't see the struggles.
Mary Li (00:20:30) - It's almost like social media. We only see the good stuff and we never see the bad stuff, right? Maybe they have a nice house and nice cars and all these things that you want, but maybe they don't have the depth of connection that you have. Judy Right.
Judy Tsuei (00:20:43) - Yeah, I fully agree. I think that, you know, the other day I was saying that I was volunteering to run this lemonade cookie stand for my daughter at the student makers market for my daughter's school. And while we were there, one of the moms who owns the kind of co-op store that we were hosting this event walked by and she goes, You look so cute and you always look so cute. And I just have that thought running in my head each time I see you. And I never, ever share it with you. And so I just wanted to make sure that I say it today. And it was such a wonderful moment for me to realize like, wait a minute, is she saying that out loud to me? And she's she just literally told me she's had that thought multiple times.
Judy Tsuei (00:21:20) - What are the other things that people are probably thinking about? Anybody who's listening, all the positive things that people are attributing to you that they become really naturally to you or you just don't even think about. And it was just like a reminder of like, Oh yeah, that's right. Like, you know, and because I tend to be my harshest critic. And so I loved what you said about, you know, not only the core values work, but also the alignment between how you make money and spend money. I think that that's something that I'm working on this year, is figuring out, am I aligned because I know I'm good at what I do? Is that aligned to what I actually want to do? You know, I hear I listen to the Modern Love podcast. I listen to all these beautiful pieces of writing. And at my heart and at my core, that's always been what's been most important to me. But I've always felt like that is being an artist, which I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've been thinking if I could do that.
Judy Tsuei (00:22:12) - But my brain and my training has always been like, You have to use your smarts and your skills to be able to apply that. Like being an artist would not be, you know, the ultimate kind of thing. So that's something that I'm working on. And even with my partner, I said it to him this morning of, you know, after our kids go through spring break, they're on different schedules, you know, all that kind of stuff. Like the next time that he and I have time just to be one on one, I would really like to work on talking about our core values like we've broached upon them before. Just being in relationship. I know that we share them, but being able to actively express what those are so that we can figure out as we evolve our relationship. And because we have little humans who are also dependent upon us, right? The complexities are very, you know, nuanced because we would have to combine multiple things, not just he and I, but like all these other things that it would impact.
Judy Tsuei (00:22:58) - I want to be sure that we're clear about where we stand. And so that would be a wonderful opportunity to work on core values, to have that understanding for our. And for each other. And I think that the sense of fulfillment I don't like the gratitude thing. I think we've heard that in common vernacular, all the gratitude practices how that leads to manifestation and like, you know, the more grateful that you are, the more things that you have to be grateful for. I loved learning that lesson when I was a yoga teacher from my cranial sacral guy who was this big Scottish guy. And he's like, Yeah, like the more grateful you are, the more things you have to be grateful for. And that was always such a helpful understanding for me. But I think fulfillment is something that we probably don't talk enough about. Like success is one thing. We talk about success a lot as a culture or whatever, but that sense of fulfillment is a different kind of like intangible soft skill to have.
Judy Tsuei (00:23:52) - And so I love that you shared about that because, you know, when you were asking about like what your core values are like recently I took my daughter to Zion. It was like a trip between me and her. And I had allotted this amount of money on this one car to be able to do it. And it was such a lovely feeling to be like, I know exactly how much money is there to be spending on this trip. It's going to be a one. And so I wasn't I didn't feel restricted at all. I felt like whatever we wanted to do and it was a great opportunity for me to be like, yes, like this is a core value of mine is creating these experiences with me. So the reason that I work and do all these other things is so I can have that. And I think being able to reflect upon like what brings you a sense of fulfillment is so beautiful. And so I love the idea of alignment in making money, spending money. You know, also as a public service announcement, please learn about just the general basics of money.
Judy Tsuei (00:24:51) - I think like especially now with crypto and everything, learning about what the fiat currency is, what inflation is doing, where you want, how much, how valuable your money actually is, like who holds your money, you know, like where are you spending in terms of who even what bank you're using to like bank with like what are they doing out in the world? And just I feel like the reason that I want to say that is because before, as I was trying to get divorced, because my money, you know, like I had kind of turned over my power to somebody else and just was like, okay, like I'm the primary, if not the sole breadwinner at times. But I certainly didn't act like I was taking care of my money in that way. And so, you know, I feel like if I felt as fearful and trapped as I was to try to get out of my situation, knowing in the back of my head I have marketable skills. I've known how to like pick myself up because I've done it since I was little.
Judy Tsuei (00:25:44) - What do people do who do not have that? And so I feel so devastated for how many people are trapped in really unhealthy situations for themselves and for the people that they love because of this lack of resources to get out of the situation or like whatever it is. And so I hear that a lot. I even heard it recently with a friend of their very well-to-do. And she had said to me like, Oh, well, I know I shouldn't do this, but I turn over all of my money stuff to my husband. And just from my own learning experience, I was like, Oh yeah, Like, I know like what risks that can take. Like, absolutely, God forbid something happens to that other person. Like I've literally been, you know, telling my daughter's godmother, like, just so you know, here's all my information. It happens like I need you to know. And so I think having that sense of ownership is really important. So I would love for you to speak to, you know, like you're not turning over your power to someone else, because I think we're trained as a society, especially as women.
Judy Tsuei (00:26:46) - Sure. Like default to this. And so can you speak to that?
Mary Li (00:26:50) - Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Like, you definitely had a really great point. And that's why I actually coach woman because I have so many highly educated women.
Judy Tsuei (00:27:01) - Educated, let's just say highly educated.
Mary Li (00:27:04) - Yes, highly educated. And and women who have really high paying and amazing jobs. Right. And they're so successful by society standard. And you'd be so surprised how many of them actually manage their own money versus sort of what your friend did, which is turn the money to the husband? Probably like 80% of sort of my circle of friends when I ask them, hey, how do you go about managing your money? Right? How do you approach building wealth? They're like, I don't know. My husband does it and I'm like, What are you working finance, right? And so much of it is exactly what you said. It's how we're taught as girls, right? When we're younger and then as woman is to sort of give away that power.
Mary Li (00:27:45) - And, and also part of it is just like the lack of confidence, right. In ourselves to be able to manage to be able to build wealth because there's so many of these demons that we're facing, like in the form of fear, guilt, shame, right? And oh, my God. So you're sort of speaking my language. And part of it, I think, number one is just sort of what we're doing right now is. Talking about money, because money is literally so taboo that more people talk about sex than they talk about money. Right. Thank you for.
Judy Tsuei (00:28:15) - Pointing that out. I'm just going to say and I'm going to shout out to my friend Lindsay, who's staying here with me right now. She is the one who helped me get into crypto, but more so just talking about money, just constantly talking about money and like being in each other's space, talking about, like, you better know how much you're allotting for taxes. You better know how much you're like, you know, all of the things.
Judy Tsuei (00:28:37) - Just like figuring out like, okay, figure out your risk assessment, figure out your investment strategy, like all of these things. And so I have loved how boldly she's like, there's no shame in talking about how much I love.
Mary Li (00:28:52) - That money.
Judy Tsuei (00:28:53) - And want more money. And that's the same for one of my really good friends. Deb, Like she's a very successful female entrepreneur in Austin. And, you know, she also has no qualms, no shame about being like, I want money. Yes. Like money. And I was like, yes, Yes. And so I think that being able to talk about it, like you said, is so important because like.
Mary Li (00:29:14) - Yeah, absolutely.
Judy Tsuei (00:29:15) - It's another thing that we like. And I will also share. I think that you and I talked about this before where, you know, my daughter was somehow recently preoccupied with the idea of marriage and getting married. And so I was like asking her questions about it. And then, you know, I'm like, it's great.
Judy Tsuei (00:29:32) - You want to get married to someone, whoever you want to get married to. Babe, I also want you to understand that it's a business contract, and you are going to have to know that when you combine yourselves in that way. There are so many other legal ramifications that come with it. This is to a seven year old. And I was like, way to burst that bubble. I'm like, No, I wish someone had told me that. That was like a clear understanding of like, I'm so happy you are in love. I am so happy you want to build a life with this person. I also want you to know that these are the potential outcomes that can happen and how are you going to set yourself up so that you are safe and secure and healthy and so I don't want to in any way burst the bubble of like, having love and like having, like, you know, that relationship. And girl, let's talk about.
Mary Li (00:30:17) - Making sure I do it right. Exactly. Yeah.
Mary Li (00:30:20) - No, I love that. Yeah. Like having conversations, right, with our friends and with our daughters and with sort of the next generation, that's how we're able to sort of normalize this topic. So we realize that, hey, actually the, the other side of fear is not that scary. Right? And that brings me to sort of the next point, which is just having a growth mindset. And I really think, you know, a lot of us, especially when, you know, hood, there's so much shame that comes with like, oh, I should have I should have learned this. I should already know how to, like, manage my money and grow my wealth, right? It's almost like cooking, you know, some people, like myself included, I'm not the greatest cook, but in my head I'm like, Oh, I should learn how to do this because I'm a freaking grown ass adult and I still don't know how to do these, like, basic adulting things.
Mary Li (00:31:05) - So money is one of them. And just know that, you know, even myself included, I worked ten years in finance. I don't know everything about finance and money, but you can learn. We can all learn. We can all be students anytime, right? And it's that awareness, that willingness to learn. That's how we're able to grow and that's how we're able to slowly sort of step into our power and feel like we have that agency and that control that you're talking about. Right? You know, so yeah, I love everything you're saying. I love that you have this strong woman in your life for influencing you positively. Right? Because it only takes one friend, right, to sort of like, wake you up and be like, Judy, get your shit together.
Judy Tsuei (00:31:47) - Totally. And what's hilarious about my friend Lindsey is that, like, I'll text her now about, you know, different things that I'm learning about investments or crypto or like, you know, all these different things.
Judy Tsuei (00:31:57) - And she jokingly texted me back and she's like, I have such, like a money boner for you right now. Like, just like, I'm so grateful that you took what I shared with you and are coming back and like sharing things with me that I didn't know about, like I was telling her, you know, because everybody talks about how volatile the industry is, I was like, Well, you know, we can look into Stablecoins. She's like, Wait, what? And so we were talking about that because I have a different I have different responsibilities, I have different like objectives to achieve. And so being able to talk about that with her and she's like, Do you know how many people I've shared this information with and who don't come back and like, you know, they're not doing anything with it, right? So she's like, you're like one of the only people who's come back and taken it and like, run with it and been like, okay, how is this going to be relevant in my life? Like, what am I going to do? And so I think that in addition to a growth mindset, you know, like there are so many things that I could beat myself up about where I'm just like, Shit, if I had bought a house when I was in my 20s, you know, like because when I had the money and like if someone had just told me, Here are your different investment opportunities, here are the things that can set you up for even more success in the future.
Judy Tsuei (00:33:01) - But I didn't have that and I didn't even know those were questions I should be asking. Right? So, you know, I can't go back and. Time and change that. But what I can do is encourage my daughter. Like she'll go to a store and like, who doesn't want to do this? Like when you're a little you just want everything. And especially with our Instagram.
Mary Li (00:33:17) - And we still want.
Judy Tsuei (00:33:18) - Everything even.
Mary Li (00:33:18) - Know exactly.
Judy Tsuei (00:33:19) - And social media makes it. Or like just everything in our world right now makes instant gratification, like so pervasive. And so I see it in her and I am like, okay, well just know like if you spend that money right now, how are you going to be bringing in more money for something that you want in the future if you spend this money right now? Is this something that you're actually going to use or you're just going to put it away and not think about it anymore? And so be mindful with how you spend that money and what it is.
Judy Tsuei (00:33:44) - And also just the giving component to, I think like what you had said of being grateful and seeing like all the other people who have much less who would want to be where you already are right now. So, you know, like I try to share that with her, like, okay, well, like what She has like this like little finance box that she got from. Oh, I love it. Yeah. It's got like, you know, save, give and like invest. I think it was like the other one or whatnot. And so just even explaining to her like, okay, if you spend this now, this is going to be the effect of that If you invest this now, that's the effect of it. And so now I catch her saying to me, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to have to order one of these things, like for the bathroom or something like that. And she's like, okay, be mindful of what you buy.
Mary Li (00:34:28) - Oh my God, love it.
Mary Li (00:34:29) - Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (00:34:30) - And not having guilt around it, but just like a very practical, pragmatic thing and like, yes, you should spend money and you should enjoy the things like let's go on this trip. But you know, also at the same time, like, what did it take for you to get there, what it's going to happen after that? And so, again, like, as you said, growth mindset, I'm still learning. I'm like, I'm learning so much all the time and just constantly like reconfiguring and and my friend Lindsey would also say, like whenever we're talking about things, she's like not financial advice, just like hashtag, not financial advice. And because there is that sense of like, I'm telling you these things because they work for me, but like it's up to you to take ownership of that situation. So what happens when you do take ownership? Like I think like calling it back. I mean, you were talking earlier in my friends here, you know, a lot of my friends have gotten divorced or getting divorced.
Judy Tsuei (00:35:24) - So we were talking about marriage. Would you ever get married again? Like, you know, all that stuff? And in the beginning, at the start of my divorce, I was like, hell no. Now I know what it is like. No. Why?
Mary Li (00:35:33) - Right.
Judy Tsuei (00:35:34) - But then there's like, now that I'm in a healthy relationship and being like, Well, actually, if we define marriage the way that I would want it to be meaningful to me, then like hell yeah, like I would, you know. But my friends are like, But why? Like, why? Why would you need to do that again? Because the financial ramifications, like financially, why would you do that? You know? And so being able to have more of those cognizant conversations and like being like, Yeah, wait a minute, if we were to, you know, do this, if anybody were to do this, like, what does it mean for me now? And like, where how can I make sure that I have ownership in my, you know, my side of the street and make sure that's all taken care of? Because I think even in partnerships, like it's one area of our lives, like we've kind of broached the topic, but we haven't really talked about it because we haven't had to do anything that involves merging any sort of anything.
Judy Tsuei (00:36:28) - And so there's a part of me that's like, Ooh, it's going to be tricky because so many emotions tied to that. So like, what do you do about that?
Mary Li (00:36:36) - Yeah, absolutely. Oh my God, that's such a great question. Right. And and sort of research has shown that the number one reason why people even get a divorce in the first place is because of money or the differences in the way that we see our money. And yeah, so much so it sort of ties back to what we were talking about earlier around really understanding where your money values and beliefs come from, right? Like we have to do the work. The stuff is not like we wake up tomorrow and we'll know exactly and be so clear around our money stance that we are able to be equipped to have a conversation with another human being that we're committing to right? It's not that easy. We have to do the work. And so much of the work is sort of looking within, right, looking within and really ask ourselves, okay, what are these beliefs I have and how many of these beliefs still serve me to this day? Right.
Mary Li (00:37:22) - And part of it is releasing and letting go of these limiting beliefs that might have served our parents generation but no longer apply to us. So we make the space to have empowering beliefs, to realize that we're deserving right or deserving of this abundance and we're ready to receive. And it's only through doing this work ourselves and being so clear of what we want and who we are and what our values are. Are we equipped to have this conversation with someone else and that's someone else? Hopefully, you know, everyone has a different relationship with money and everyone is in such a different stage of their journey with money. So hopefully they have done the work, but if they haven't, then we can sort of guide them towards doing the work and really reflect right on where they. Ah, and where their beliefs are otherwise. This is like what you said is going to be big emotions walking to the room. We're going to get triggered, they're going to get triggered and the conversation just becomes unproductive. And that's how I start and that's how relationship end.
Mary Li (00:38:22) - So this is sort of like homecoming back to ourselves, doing the work ourselves. And just one more thing to say, which is, you know, our relationship with ourselves is the most important relationship, and that is the foundation to every relationship we have, whether it's with a partner or with money. Right? So, so much of so much of the work is actually us working on us. If we don't have this sense of self-worth, the sense of deserving, right, like these beliefs that are making up our identity, then of course we're not going to see something like we're not we're not going to see high net worth because we don't we don't feel like we deserve that. So sort of all of this conversation sort of ties back to who we are and who we think we are and what do we think we deserve.
Judy Tsuei (00:39:13) - I love that. I love the idea of homecoming. I think that when I was teaching yoga a lot, we'd talk about that. All of us are just trying to remember, like become a member of the self that we were a part of before we got here.
Judy Tsuei (00:39:27) - And just like trying to remember how to come home to ourselves, it seems like that idea is so beautiful and lovely and comforting that, you know, society and the world pushes us to be whoever they think that we're supposed to be. And it's so easy to get caught in that storm of whatever it is, and then to finally calm things down and come back to a sense of self. Just the idea of homecoming is so wonderful. So thank you for sharing that. So as we come to a close in this interview, I always ask every guest, if you could say saving face about one thing or many things maybe, but like one key, what would you say saving face about?
Mary Li (00:40:08) - Yeah, absolutely. I think sort of related to what we just talked about. Right. And sort of just remembering our Asian American values. So much of those values are all about honoring our family, living up to someone else's expectation, right? So I would say fuck face to someone else's expectation because in order to really be true to ourselves and really to make our family proud, right, we have to come home to ourselves to really honor our own inner calling and our own inner wisdom in order to live so authentically that not only are we happy and fulfilled, but the people around us also feel inspired and are happy and fulfilled for us.
Judy Tsuei (00:40:49) - I love that. So if people want to follow up with you and potentially work with you to rewrite their own money, money and beliefs and work on their money mindset, how can they do that? Absolutely.
Mary Li (00:41:00) - Yeah. The easiest way to reach out to me is on Instagram. So my handle is at Mary Lee. Coaching is really coaching, so that would be the easiest way to reach out to me.
Judy Tsuei (00:41:10) - Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today. I've loved chatting with you.
Mary Li (00:41:14) - Yeah, thank you so much, Judy. It seems like we have so much in common. Yeah.
Judy Tsuei (00:41:18) - Yeah. And by the way, Mary's on Oahu, so I'll have to, like, plan a visit here.
Mary Li (00:41:23) - Yes. Come. Come visit you. Yeah. Thank you so much, Judy.
Judy Tsuei (00:41:28) - Remember, go to wild hearted words. Com forward slash rewrite r e w i t e to take another step towards cultivating and creating the life that you want to have on your own terms to be wildly you.
Judy Tsuei (00:41:48) - Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If you'd like to support me and this show, please go to iTunes and leave your review. It means so much to me and it'll help others find this podcast. I'll catch you in the next episode and if you'd like to stay in touch between now and then, please visit wild hearted words and sign up for my weekly newsletter. I've had people share with me that it's the best thing to arrive in their inbox all week. Aloha.
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